Why are Obama's Critics So Dumb? (Newsweek Article)

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Why are Obama's Critics So Dumb? (Newsweek Article)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/01/15/andrew-sullivan-how-obama-s-long-game-will-outsmart-his-critics.html



 

Andrew Sullivan: How Obama's Long Game Will Outsmart His Critics

 

The right calls him a socialist, the left says he sucks up to Wall Street, and independents think he's a wimp. Andrew Sullivan on how the president may just end up outsmarting them all.

 | January 16, 2012 12:00 AM EST

You hear it everywhere. Democrats are disappointed in the president. Independents have soured even more. Republicans have worked themselves up into an apocalyptic fervor. And, yes, this is not exactly unusual.

 

A president in the last year of his first term will always get attacked mercilessly by his partisan opponents, and also, often, by the feistier members of his base. And when unemployment is at remarkably high levels, and with the national debt setting records, the criticism will—and should be—even fiercer. But this time, with this president, something different has happened. It’s not that I don’t understand the critiques of Barack Obama from the enraged right and the demoralized left. It’s that I don’t even recognize their description of Obama’s first term in any way. The attacks from both the right and the left on the man and his policies aren’t out of bounds. They’re simply—empirically—wrong.

A caveat: I write this as an unabashed supporter of Obama from early 2007 on. I did so not as a liberal, but as a conservative-minded independent appalled by the Bush administration’s record of war, debt, spending, and torture. I did not expect, or want, a messiah. I have one already, thank you very much. And there have been many times when I have disagreed with decisions Obama has made—to drop the Bowles-Simpson debt commission, to ignore the war crimes of the recent past, and to launch a war in Libya without Congress’s sanction, to cite three. But given the enormity of what he inherited, and given what he explicitly promised, it remains simply a fact that Obama has delivered in a way that the unhinged right and purist left have yet to understand or absorb. Their short-term outbursts have missed Obama’s long game—and why his reelection remains, in my view, as essential for this country’s future as his original election in 2008.

OBAMA CAMPAIGN 20

Doug Mills / The New York Times-Redux

The right’s core case is that Obama has governed as a radical leftist attempting a “fundamental transformation” of the American way of life. Mitt Romney accuses the president of making the recession worse, of wanting to turn America into a European welfare state, of not believing in opportunity or free enterprise, of having no understanding of the real economy, and of apologizing for America and appeasing our enemies. According to Romney, Obama is a mortal threat to “the soul” of America and an empty suit who couldn’t run a business, let alone a country.

Leave aside the internal incoherence—how could such an incompetent be a threat to anyone? None of this is even faintly connected to reality—and the record proves it. On the economy, the facts are these. When Obama took office, the United States was losing around 750,000 jobs a month. The last quarter of 2008 saw an annualized drop in growth approaching 9 percent. This was the most serious downturn since the 1930s, there was a real chance of a systemic collapse of the entire global financial system, and unemployment and debt—lagging indicators—were about to soar even further. No fair person can blame Obama for the wreckage of the next 12 months, as the financial crisis cut a swath through employment. Economies take time to shift course.

But Obama did several things at once: he continued the bank bailout begun by George W. Bush, he initiated a bailout of the auto industry, and he worked to pass a huge stimulus package of $787 billion.

All these decisions deserve scrutiny. And in retrospect, they were far more successful than anyone has yet fully given Obama the credit for. The job collapse bottomed out at the beginning of 2010, as the stimulus took effect. Since then, the U.S. has added 2.4 million jobs. That’s not enough, but it’s far better than what Romney would have you believe, and more than the net jobs created under the entire Bush administration. In 2011 alone, 1.9 million private-sector jobs were created, while a net 280,000 government jobs were lost. Overall government employment has declined 2.6 percent over the past 3 years. (That compares with a drop of 2.2 percent during the early years of the Reagan administration.) To listen to current Republican rhetoric about Obama’s big-government socialist ways, you would imagine that the reverse was true. It isn’t.

The right claims the stimulus failed because it didn’t bring unemployment down to 8 percent in its first year, as predicted by Obama’s transition economic team. Instead, it peaked at 10.2 percent. But the 8 percent prediction was made before Obama took office and was wrong solely because it relied on statistics that guessed the economy was only shrinking by around 4 percent, not 9. Remove that statistical miscalculation (made by government and private-sector economists alike) and the stimulus did exactly what it was supposed to do. It put a bottom under the free fall. It is not an exaggeration to say it prevented a spiral downward that could have led to the Second Great Depression.

You’d think, listening to the Republican debates, that Obama has raised taxes. Again, this is not true. Not only did he agree not to sunset the Bush tax cuts for his entire first term, he has aggressively lowered taxes on most Americans. A third of the stimulus was tax cuts, affecting 95 percent of taxpayers; he has cut the payroll tax, and recently had to fight to keep it cut against Republican opposition. His spending record is also far better than his predecessor’s. Under Bush, new policies on taxes and spending cost the taxpayer a total of $5.07 trillion. Under Obama’s budgets both past and projected, he will have added $1.4 trillion in two terms. Under Bush and the GOP, nondefense discretionary spending grew by twice as much as under Obama. Again: imagine Bush had been a Democrat and Obama a Republican. You could easily make the case that Obama has been far more fiscally conservative than his predecessor—except, of course, that Obama has had to govern under the worst recession since the 1930s, and Bush, after the 2001 downturn, governed in a period of moderate growth. It takes work to increase the debt in times of growth, as Bush did. It takes much more work to constrain the debt in the deep recession Bush bequeathed Obama.

The great conservative bugaboo, Obamacare, is also far more moderate than its critics have claimed. The Congressional Budget Office has projected it will reduce the deficit, not increase it dramatically, as Bush’s unfunded Medicare Prescription Drug benefit did. It is based on the individual mandate, an idea pioneered by the archconservative Heritage Foundation, Newt Gingrich, and, of course, Mitt Romney, in the past. It does not have a public option; it gives a huge new client base to the drug and insurance companies; its health-insurance exchanges were also pioneered by the right. It’s to the right of the Clintons’ monstrosity in 1993, and remarkably similar to Nixon’s 1974 proposal. Its passage did not preempt recovery efforts; it followed them. It needs improvement in many ways, but the administration is open to further reform and has agreed to allow states to experiment in different ways to achieve the same result. It is not, as Romney insists, a one-model, top-down prescription. Like Obama’s Race to the Top education initiative, it sets standards, grants incentives, and then allows individual states to experiment. Embedded in it are also a slew of cost-reduction pilot schemes to slow health-care spending. Yes, it crosses the Rubicon of universal access to private health care. But since federal law mandates that hospitals accept all emergency-room cases requiring treatment anyway, we already obey that socialist principle—but in the most inefficient way possible. Making 44 million current free-riders pay into the system is not fiscally reckless; it is fiscally prudent. It is, dare I say it, conservative.

On foreign policy, the right-wing critiques have been the most unhinged. Romney accuses the president of apologizing for America, and others all but accuse him of treason and appeasement. Instead, Obama reversed Bush’s policy of ignoring Osama bin Laden, immediately setting a course that eventually led to his capture and death. And when the moment for decision came, the president overruled both his secretary of state and vice president in ordering the riskiest—but most ambitious—plan on the table. He even personally ordered the extra helicopters that saved the mission. It was a triumph, not only in killing America’s primary global enemy, but in getting a massive trove of intelligence to undermine al Qaeda even further. If George Bush had taken out bin Laden, wiped out al Qaeda’s leadership, and gathered a treasure trove of real intelligence by a daring raid, he’d be on Mount Rushmore by now. But where Bush talked tough and acted counterproductively, Obama has simply, quietly, relentlessly decimated our real enemies, while winning the broader propaganda war. Since he took office, al Qaeda’s popularity in the Muslim world has plummeted.

Obama’s foreign policy, like Dwight Eisenhower’s or George H.W. Bush’s, eschews short-term political hits for long-term strategic advantage. It is forged by someone interested in advancing American interests—not asserting an ideology and enforcing it regardless of the consequences by force of arms. By hanging back a little, by “leading from behind” in Libya and elsewhere, Obama has made other countries actively seek America’s help and reappreciate our role. As an antidote to the bad feelings of the Iraq War, it has worked close to perfectly.

But the right isn’t alone in getting Obama wrong. While the left is less unhinged in its critique, it is just as likely to miss the screen for the pixels. From the start, liberals projected onto Obama absurd notions of what a president can actually do in a polarized country, where anything requires 60 Senate votes even to stand a chance of making it into law. They have described him as a hapless tool of Wall Street, a continuation of Bush in civil liberties, a cloistered elitist unable to grasp the populist moment that is his historic opportunity. They rail against his attempts to reach a Grand Bargain on entitlement reform. They decry his too-small stimulus, his too-weak financial reform, and his too-cautious approach to gay civil rights. They despair that he reacts to rabid Republican assaults with lofty appeals to unity and compromise.

They miss, it seems to me, two vital things. The first is the simple scale of what has been accomplished on issues liberals say they care about. A depression was averted. The bail-out of the auto industry was—amazingly—successful. Even the bank bailouts have been repaid to a great extent by a recovering banking sector. The Iraq War—the issue that made Obama the nominee—has been ended on time and, vitally, with no troops left behind. Defense is being cut steadily, even as Obama has moved his own party away from a Pelosi-style reflexive defense of all federal entitlements. Under Obama, support for marriage equality and marijuana legalization has crested to record levels. Under Obama, a crucial state, New York, made marriage equality for gays an irreversible fact of American life. Gays now openly serve in the military, and the Defense of Marriage Act is dying in the courts, undefended by the Obama Justice Department. Vast government money has been poured into noncarbon energy investments, via the stimulus. Fuel-emission standards have been drastically increased. Torture was ended. Two moderately liberal women replaced men on the Supreme Court. Oh, yes, and the liberal holy grail that eluded Johnson and Carter and Clinton, nearly universal health care, has been set into law. Politifact recently noted that of 508 specific promises, a third had been fulfilled and only two have not had some action taken on them. To have done all this while simultaneously battling an economic hurricane makes Obama about as honest a follow-through artist as anyone can expect from a politician.

What liberals have never understood about Obama is that he practices a show-don’t-tell, long-game form of domestic politics. What matters to him is what he can get done, not what he can immediately take credit for. And so I railed against him for the better part of two years for dragging his feet on gay issues. But what he was doing was getting his Republican defense secretary and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs to move before he did. The man who made the case for repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell” was, in the end, Adm. Mike Mullen. This took time—as did his painstaking change in the rule barring HIV-positive immigrants and tourists—but the slow and deliberate and unprovocative manner in which it was accomplished made the changes more durable. Not for the first time, I realized that to understand Obama, you have to take the long view. Because he does.

Or take the issue of the banks. Liberals have derided him as a captive of Wall Street, of being railroaded by Larry Summers and Tim Geithner into a too-passive response to the recklessness of the major U.S. banks. But it’s worth recalling that at the start of 2009, any responsible president’s priority would have been stabilization of the financial system, not the exacting of revenge. Obama was not elected, despite liberal fantasies, to be a left-wing crusader. He was elected as a pragmatic, unifying reformist who would be more responsible than Bush.

And what have we seen? A recurring pattern. To use the terms Obama first employed in his inaugural address: the president begins by extending a hand to his opponents; when they respond by raising a fist, he demonstrates that they are the source of the problem; then, finally, he moves to his preferred position of moderate liberalism and fights for it without being effectively tarred as an ideologue or a divider. This kind of strategy takes time. And it means there are long stretches when Obama seems incapable of defending himself, or willing to let others to define him, or simply weak. I remember those stretches during the campaign against Hillary Clinton. I also remember whose strategy won out in the end.

This is where the left is truly deluded. By misunderstanding Obama’s strategy and temperament and persistence, by grandstanding on one issue after another, by projecting unrealistic fantasies onto a candidate who never pledged a liberal revolution, they have failed to notice that from the very beginning, Obama was playing a long game. He did this with his own party over health-care reform. He has done it with the Republicans over the debt. He has done it with the Israeli government over stopping the settlements on the West Bank—and with the Iranian regime, by not playing into their hands during the Green Revolution, even as they gunned innocents down in the streets. Nothing in his first term—including the complicated multiyear rollout of universal health care—can be understood if you do not realize that Obama was always planning for eight years, not four. And if he is reelected, he will have won a battle more important than 2008: for it will be a mandate for an eight-year shift away from the excesses of inequality, overreach abroad, and reckless deficit spending of the last three decades. It will recapitalize him to entrench what he has done already and make it irreversible.

Yes, Obama has waged a war based on a reading of executive power that many civil libertarians, including myself, oppose. And he has signed into law the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens without trial (even as he pledged never to invoke this tyrannical power himself). But he has done the most important thing of all: excising the cancer of torture from military detention and military justice. If he is not reelected, that cancer may well return. Indeed, many on the right appear eager for it to return.

Sure, Obama cannot regain the extraordinary promise of 2008. We’ve already elected the nation’s first black president and replaced a tongue-tied dauphin with a man of peerless eloquence. And he has certainly failed to end Washington’s brutal ideological polarization, as he pledged to do. But most Americans in polls rightly see him as less culpable for this impasse than the GOP. Obama has steadfastly refrained from waging the culture war, while the right has accused him of a “war against religion.” He has offered to cut entitlements (and has already cut Medicare), while the Republicans have refused to raise a single dollar of net revenue from anyone. Even the most austerity-driven government in Europe, the British Tories, are to the left of that. And it is this Republican intransigence—from the 2009 declaration by Rush Limbaugh that he wants Obama “to fail” to the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s admission that his primary objective is denying Obama a second term—that has been truly responsible for the deadlock. And the only way out of that deadlock is an electoral rout of the GOP, since the language of victory and defeat seems to be the only thing it understands.

If I sound biased, that’s because I am. Biased toward the actual record, not the spin; biased toward a president who has conducted himself with grace and calm under incredible pressure, who has had to manage crises not seen since the Second World War and the Depression, and who as yet has not had a single significant scandal to his name. “To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle,” George Orwell once wrote. What I see in front of my nose is a president whose character, record, and promise remain as grotesquely underappreciated now as they were absurdly hyped in 2008. And I feel confident that sooner rather than later, the American people will come to see his first term from the same calm, sane perspective. And decide to finish what they started.

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Uh, ya. Now that a reporter has done an opinion piece and omitted several other factual events I can see that he is an AMAZING president. Send me my ballot right now, and i'll check the box next to Obama...Ya right.


This is my BOOMSTICK!!!

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pigsticker Said:
Uh, ya. Now that a reporter has done an opinion piece and omitted several other factual events I can see that he is an AMAZING president. Send me my ballot right now, and i'll check the box next to Obama...Ya right.

As the reporter said it is because Obama out smarted you.
Someday maybe you will be smart enough to realize that record debt, unemployment, welfare recieptents, and food stamp use is exactly what this country needs.
Send me a ballot too, as this must be what I am also to dim to see, Obama as a amazing pres

There's a whole generation of Americans that have no idea about the truth of the Clintons, particularly Hillary 


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pigsticker Said:
Uh, ya. Now that a reporter has done an opinion piece and omitted several other factual events I can see that he is an AMAZING president. Send me my ballot right now, and i'll check the box next to Obama

Democrats will approve voting often and early and please make sure your dead relatives also vote

The best democrat platform a Republican can stand on it a manure pile

drug test everyone on welfare

have an open season on molesters

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To quote;

"I write this as an unabashed supporter of Obama from early 2007 on. I did so not as a liberal, but as a conservative-minded independent appalled by the Bush administration’s record of war, debt, spending, and torture."

That describes several life long Republican voters that I know well.   Level headed voters who barely slipped across the line in an attempt to houseclean the Republican Party!   Heard this very thing expressed again by 3 or 4 of them the other night.   Republicans make the mistake of saying John McCain was too moderate and that's why Obama got in.  Not so IMHO!    Obama simply got in by default because of the above paragraph.    And the paragraph didn't even mention all the demographic groups that the Republicans forgot about or discounted the last election.  The Hispanics, women, gays, old people, the genuinely no fault of their won  poor people, the medically uninsurable or now destitute, etc.   I worry that they will make that mistake again.

I don't agree with a lot of what that guy writes and his interpretations of events, and I had to read it twice to understand what he was saying in several places. Took my old grey head a long time to digest it - its very long and brings up many issues. 

But yes, to a degree a lot of what he writes makes sense.  If the Republican bosses ingore opinions like again in their zeal to go too far right,  then Obama will get in, despite the currrent feeling on FBO that anyone voting for Obama is stupid, retared and doesn't understand any issues.   This next election will be CLOSE, and remember, only a relatively few votes make any difference at all!   Don't count your chickens.......
I'd encourage everyone to read this with an open, objective  mind, if possible.    Not a great article, but not a BAD one either.

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bobkat- In reference to reading this article with an open mind I agree. It's obvious that a few of the above  got past the first sentence before passing judgement and making a generalized,  attention deficit type, partisan rant.  
When I was in college I chalked up the type of reaction exhibited by many  here  to lazy, juvenile behavior.  Later on when I first began working professionally and witnessed this to a degree in nursing homes I thought ....perhaps senility?    Now it's clear to me.  Often times there's a combination of both that's alive and well in a sizable segment of our entire socieity.  As first glance it's amusing but when one thinks about it, it becomes disturbing. 

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Please don't feed the troll (aka genius).

 

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That kind of thinking is  especially rampant on FBO.  The same guys throw up the same old - same old stuff, time after time, with never a thought that others might have a valid viewpoint or different way of seeing things once in a while.   Because this particualar cut n paste is so long and takes time to read it all,  I'd seriously wonder how many, if any, read it thoroughtly, much less thought about its content at all.
I'd bet few, if any!  
I maintain that the same old preaching to the choir over and over does nothing to win  new converts or any new voters whatsoever.  If anything, all that kind of stuff does is alienate a lot of people who might otherwise vote their way but get so sick and tired of crap that the opposite happens.  
I check all sorts of political websites, but on left leaning ones I have to say that you simply don't see the bitterness and name calling and crap you find on the right leaning ones.  I keep wondering why this is????  Seems counter productive to me, assuming any uncommitted voters actually frequent them.
 
The best political discussion websites do have opent fairly objective discussion, usually fairly positive, and there's stuff to learn and opinions and wannabee ideas posted by both sides.  NEVER sarcastic Liberal calling stuff.  I think bloggers  that do that they get that from TMR!  

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guywhofishes,(aka unabomber)
The proclivity in regard to the granted status of " genius" seems to be  easily realized when surrounded by ,... non genius types?

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pigsticker - when you say "Uh, ya. Now that a reporter has done an opinion piece and omitted several other factual events I can see that he is an AMAZING president. Send me my ballot right now, and i'll check the box next to Obama...Ya right." maybe you could be more specific and actually present some of those "omitted" factual events.

This article is right on the money and that should scare some of you that think Obama is some kind of socialist anti-christ. You have underestimated him and so have many of my progressive and liberal friends. Obama has accomplished a lot and has come out looking better than the GOP (Grumpy Obstructionist Partypoopers).

C'mon. Give us some facts if you claim the author left out so many! 

You can't because the facts are facts and not opinions. The economy is growing, Osama Bin Laden is DEAD, unemployment is going down, the stock market has recovered, the auto industry has recovered and is doing well - and you just hate to admit that Obama is kicking ass in every way!  LOL.

Where were you when Bush ran up the deficit, destroyed constitutional protections (the Patriot Act), created the largest wealth transfer of any president (from the poor and working class to the wealthiest in this country), and ran our economy into the toilet?

Where was your outrage then?

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Marksman says Democrats will approve voting often and early and please make sure your dead relatives also vote.  The fact is that voter fraud is very rare and in those rare cases it was done by rich white Republicans too! The GOP is trying to get stricter voter id laws, less voting places in "Democratic" leaning counties, less same day voting, blocking college students voting, etc. while giving exceptions to people with gun permits for instance because they are scared of a democratic vote.

There is a difference between attempted voter fraud and an actual illegal vote. Many ballots are thrown out due to errors and fraud, but those votes aren't counted. Just like the GOP attacked ACORN for voter fraud when there was not one instance of voter fraud by ACORN, there WERE instances of attempted voter fraud THAT WAS TURNED IN BY ACORN. 

If you are really concerned about elections then I would be more concerned about the millions and millions of dollars thrown at politicians by special interests and the cycle of corruption that means our representative don't work for "We the People" but their campaign contributors. That's the real affront to democracy!

Where were you when Bush ran up the deficit, destroyed constitutional protections (the Patriot Act), created the largest wealth transfer of any president (from the poor and working class to the wealthiest in this country), and ran our economy into the toilet?

Where was your outrage then?

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MythBuster777 Said:
pigsticker - when you say "Uh, ya. Now that a reporter has done an opinion piece and omitted several other factual events I can see that he is an AMAZING president. Send me my ballot right now, and i'll check the box next to Obama...Ya right." maybe you could be more specific and actually present some of those "omitted" factual events.

This article is right on the money and that should scare some of you that think Obama is some kind of socialist anti-christ. You have underestimated him and so have many of my progressive and liberal friends. Obama has accomplished a lot and has come out looking better than the GOP (Grumpy Obstructionist Partypoopers).

C'mon. Give us some facts if you claim the author left out so many! 

You can't because the facts are facts and not opinions. The economy is growing, Osama Bin Laden is DEAD, unemployment is going down, the stock market has recovered, the auto industry has recovered and is doing well - and you just hate to admit that Obama is kicking ass in every way!  LOL.

I think you'd be surprised how many of us were pissed at BOTH Bush's and congress's spending... and do mean PISSED. I wrote many letters to him and our three clowns. All to no avail... spend spend spend spend spend.

Since I mentioned spending - please do post one simple fact since facts are facts and they all seemingly conclude Obama's a success.

What's the Obama administration's deficit spending vs. Bush's?

 

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It's all pretty filthy no matter who gets the finger.

I dont go around guessing cup sizes either I just know a nice rack when I see one.

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Whoops!

I dont go around guessing cup sizes either I just know a nice rack when I see one.

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Attempt #2

I dont go around guessing cup sizes either I just know a nice rack when I see one.

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Wow! Bobkats typical holier than thou attitude yet shines again. Just cuz your old and grey doesnt mean that your the only one with a valid opinion. Would you like me to write a reactionary comment about as long as that piece. I have read it, the whole darn thing, and recognized it for what it was. An opinion piece trying to justify our presidents actions for still being in the worst economic disaster since the 30's. From what i'm to read and comprehend it all pertains to Bush and how this is still all his fault 3 years after his administration. True, Obama was responsible for Osama, a threat to national security. But Bush was responsible for another tyranical leader responsible for far more deaths on the face of this planet, just not in this country. It's funny that our reporter mentions the fact that bush simply cast our cares about Osama aside until Obama took office and then secretly Obama began a search for this well protected and slippery mastermind.

After reading this piece I am quite certain that the rest of the political parties and nations leaders really are actually quite dumb and the only two to have this whole thing figured out are Obama and this journalist.

Hey, not sure if you knew this or not, but we just reached a 15 trillion dollar deficit. That wasn't all by bush's hand. He hasn't been spending for oh...say three years now. Any fact can be spun and yes, positive can be found in any negative situation, if you really really look hard enough in this case, which obviously this journalist did. Like I said, i'm sold. Give me a ballot and i'll give him another 4 years of my time. Or not so much...

Shall I write a retort to every point that this jounalist touched upon to prove to both of you that I  (and maybe others) have read this piece.  I'm just asking what the protocol is to satisfy your type. I guess I didn't know I would have to give a summary to my school teacher about the article.

[Copy and paste]


This is my BOOMSTICK!!!

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bobcat??? More like "Rhino". Come on bud just admit it already.

 "Play it Mr.Toot"

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MythBuster777 Said:
Marksman says Democrats will approve voting often and early and please make sure your dead relatives also vote.  The fact is that voter fraud is very rare and in those rare cases it was done by rich white Republicans too! The GOP is trying to get stricter voter id laws, less voting places in "Democratic" leaning counties, less same day voting, blocking college students voting, etc. while giving exceptions to people with gun permits for instance because they are scared of a democratic vote.

There is a difference between attempted voter fraud and an actual illegal vote. Many ballots are thrown out due to errors and fraud, but those votes aren't counted. Just like the GOP attacked ACORN for voter fraud when there was not one instance of voter fraud by ACORN, there WERE instances of attempted voter fraud THAT WAS TURNED IN BY ACORN. 

If you are really concerned about elections then I would be more concerned about the millions and millions of dollars thrown at politicians by special interests and the cycle of corruption that means our representative don't work for "We the People" but their campaign contributors. That's the real affront to democracy!

Voter fraud by Acorn occurred in dozens of states. Please google acorn voter fraud. They paid fines etc. Why do you talk of rich, white republicans. Republicans never talk of poor black democrats. No need to point fingers.
Redistribution does not work! If you gave 1000 people 1000 dollars within 18 months 50 of the 1000 would control 90% of the money. Hard work and a desire to better a persons living are the driving force behind successful people. If you create a welfare state the people that have little to nothing will never aspire to be anything but a welfare recipient.
Cream rises to the top and crap sinks!
There is more money on the sidelines hoping for a new President than ever before. The day Obama and his clueless staff are gone the economy will start to rev. The reason the unemployment went down was because of the extra help needed at Christmas. The next report will be back above 9%. The auto industry has not turned itself around the electric car business is holding them back. Solyndra type support from your buddy are just beggining to surface. Good luck with your buddy Obama!

Wonderful Reagan quote that says it like it is! "It isn't that Liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

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how much debt??

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-has-now-increased-debt-more-all-presidents-george-washington-through-george-hw

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you have to love liberal plants that register and post these liberal propaganda pieces the same day never to be heard from again.  I love it.  It's like a drive by shooting lol

 

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This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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eyexer Said:
you have to love liberal plants that register and post these liberal propaganda pieces the same day never to be heard from again.  I love it.  It's like a drive by shooting lol

Yup...  Love them about as much as the long termers who act like they're all conservative but want the state or some other gov't agency to spend all kinds of money on paving hardly used roads to their favorite boat ramp, money to open more places for them to hunt, and the likes but think paying a tax such as social security to insure an elderly or handicapped person has at least enough for the basics in life as something that's destroying this country. 

I never voted for Mr. O, but I'm at least smart enough to know that whoever was elected in this current term was going to have the budget deficit skyrocket.  One party would do it by keeping taxes the same and giving our money to about everyone.  The other would have lowered taxes for mostly the rich and promised us it would trickle down and make the rest of us rich too.  In the end, the deficit would still be the same.  As for which one would have actually worked better, we'll never get to know.

This thread is about as worthless as the other thread going pushing Ron Paul.  Sorry, but I don't believe our country is 50 different little countries.  It's one united nation.  I'm not for getting rid of the EPA and letting each state try to take on super rich global corporations that could eat some of them alive.  I'm not for not having rules that level the playing field and keeping both individuals and companies in check.  Do I think we've gone too far?  ABSOLUTELY.  But to get rid of that stuff entirely like Mr. Paul wants?  I don't think so....

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gonefshn Said:

eyexer Said:
you have to love liberal plants that register and post these liberal propaganda pieces the same day never to be heard from again.  I love it.  It's like a drive by shooting lol

Yup...  Love them about as much as the long termers who act like they're all conservative but want the state or some other gov't agency to spend all kinds of money on paving hardly used roads to their favorite boat ramp, money to open more places for them to hunt, and the likes but think paying a tax such as social security to insure an elderly or handicapped person has at least enough for the basics in life as something that's destroying this country. 

I never voted for Mr. O, but I'm at least smart enough to know that whoever was elected in this current term was going to have the budget deficit skyrocket.  One party would do it by keeping taxes the same and giving our money to about everyone.  The other would have lowered taxes for mostly the rich and promised us it would trickle down and make the rest of us rich too.  In the end, the deficit would still be the same.  As for which one would have actually worked better, we'll never get to know.

This thread is about as worthless as the other thread going pushing Ron Paul.  Sorry, but I don't believe our country is 50 different little countries.  It's one united nation.  I'm not for getting rid of the EPA and letting each state try to take on super rich global corporations that could eat some of them alive.  I'm not for not having rules that level the playing field and keeping both individuals and companies in check.  Do I think we've gone too far?  ABSOLUTELY.  But to get rid of that stuff entirely like Mr. Paul wants?  I don't think so....

please don't confuse me for some middle of the road republican that is closer to a liberal than a conservative.  And just so you'll know the fact, whenever taxes are cut, revenues to the government have increased. 

 

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One party would do it by keeping taxes the same and giving our money to about everyone. The other would have lowered taxes for mostly the rich and promised us it would trickle down and make the rest of us rich too. In the end, the deficit would still be the same. As for which one would have actually worked better, we'll never get to know.
Gone fishing____  These are your words. You have to be kidding me. We were in a very similar position in 1980 after Carter screwed everything up. One difference is the interest rates. Mortgage rates got as high as 15%. Reagan cut taxes from 70% on the top to 35%. Revenues into the tax ledger doubled with the economy being spurred on by people spending, investing and turning the dollar. The gov taking money is NEVER a good thing. Most people are a lot smarter spending and investing than the gov. Please do not say we do not know what would have happened. WE DO!

Wonderful Reagan quote that says it like it is! "It isn't that Liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

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eyexer-Just saw your statement about whenever taxes are cut revenues are increased .  If you free yourself from fox fantasy and listen to just about anything else you'll see somthing a little different.  Let's take Bruce Bartlett, Reagans Domestic policy adivsor.  He tends to strongly disagree with your statement.  Take a look at Rev/gdp and Rev/per capita after the Bush tax cuts.  Yes it runs quite contrary to your "beliefs".
Too decrease revenue and at the same time send spending through the roof is economic absurdity~!

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 . Haha

I have a bad feeling that whenever a lesbian looks at me they think “That’s why I’m not a heterosexual”. -George Costanza

I was in the pool! I was in the pool! You don’t understand! There was shrinkage!   -George Costanza

You know if you take everything I’ve ever done in my entire life and condense it down into one day, it looks decent. -George Costanza

Don’t insult me, my friend. Remember who you’re talking to. No one’s a bigger idiot than me. -George Costanza

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I bet all of the far right republicans on here are really enjoying the Obama 2012 ad right next to this thread!  

I have a bad feeling that whenever a lesbian looks at me they think “That’s why I’m not a heterosexual”. -George Costanza

I was in the pool! I was in the pool! You don’t understand! There was shrinkage!   -George Costanza

You know if you take everything I’ve ever done in my entire life and condense it down into one day, it looks decent. -George Costanza

Don’t insult me, my friend. Remember who you’re talking to. No one’s a bigger idiot than me. -George Costanza

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fishmahn Said:
bobkat- In reference to reading this article with an open mind I agree. It's obvious that a few of the above  got past the first sentence before passing judgement and making a generalized,  attention deficit type, partisan rant.  
When I was in college I chalked up the type of reaction exhibited by many  here  to lazy, juvenile behavior.  Later on when I first began working professionally and witnessed this to a degree in nursing homes I thought ....perhaps senility?    Now it's clear to me.  Often times there's a combination of both that's alive and well in a sizable segment of our entire socieity.  As first glance it's amusing but when one thinks about it, it becomes disturbing. 

What you preceive as lazy and juvenile, I believe is actually expressions of true concerns for our country and the direction which it is heading.  If you to thought our great country was headed for the crapper I would hope you would be outraged as well.

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Obama, Pelosi, Reed, and the rest need to retire, get voted out or what ever. So far removed from reality they dont know wether to scratch their watch or wind their ass.
Claiming that the outrageous spending going on in DC has kept us from a depression is absurd, its what is pushing us towards it.
Try doing the same thing with your own bank account and see how well that thought process works.

The entire liberal agenda is absolute bunk.

There's a whole generation of Americans that have no idea about the truth of the Clintons, particularly Hillary 


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jig4pig-I don't doubt these people  have a concern.  It's the matter in which they address it.   Making  vague generalities  and not looking at things ( ieabove article)-  with even a minicule glimmer of  objectivity makes discussion pointless.   Simply siding with a certain political persuation on every topic and then  showing outrage or concern really just typifies someone incapable of thinking for themselves..  They have basically been absorbed and any attempt for an objective discussion is futile.

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johnr-*lol* Has the Statue of Liberty gone capoot??

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fishmahn Said:
jig4pig-I don't doubt these people  have a concern.  It's the matter in which they address it.   Making  vague generalities  and not looking at things ( ieabove article)-  with even a minicule glimmer of  objectivity makes discussion pointless.   Simply siding with a certain political persuation on every topic and then  showing outrage or concern really just typifies someone incapable of thinking for themselves..  They have basically been absorbed and any attempt for an objective discussion is futile.

What is your point? You don't know if they read the article or not. Quit being so assumptive. Do you honestly believe that they would have a different opinion even if they had read the article in its entirety? Or is belittling them the way you refuse to acknowledge that somebody else disagrees with your opinion on the subject matter. People do have the right to weigh in, whether it's a sentence or a complete thesis, and maybe they don't want to have a lengthy discussion about it.


This is my BOOMSTICK!!!

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fishmahn Said:
johnr-*lol* Has the Statue of Liberty gone capoot??

Ha ha, maybe.

There's a whole generation of Americans that have no idea about the truth of the Clintons, particularly Hillary 


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pigsticker-Who is being  assumptive?  Are you assuming I agreed with everything in the article?  That IS the point!  What individual with an open mind agrees with everything  just because of a perceived affiliation or disagrees because of the inverse?   Perhaps my basic point is a  little more clear now?  I

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fishmahn Said:
It's obvious that a few of the above  got past the first sentence before passing judgement and making a generalized,  attention deficit type, partisan rant.  
When I was in college I chalked up the type of reaction exhibited by many  here  to lazy, juvenile behavior. 

This statement leads me to believe that you are being assumptive about the participants in this forum.


This is my BOOMSTICK!!!

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pigsticker-generalized one liners do not make a point.    Taking a case in point and stating your disparities does.  This isn't rocket science.   This is also getting to be a be a bit redundant.  Enjoy the day! 

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johnr Said:
Obama, Pelosi, Reed, and the rest need to retire, get voted out or what ever. So far removed from reality they dont know wether to scratch their watch or wind their ass.
Claiming that the outrageous spending going on in DC has kept us from a depression is absurd, its what is pushing us towards it.
Try doing the same thing with your own bank account and see how well that thought process works.

The entire liberal agenda is absolute bunk.

This gave me an idea lets get someone from each side I dont know who yet but order gets picked after a coinflip. Say the R's get first pick and they get to can Obama, pelosi, Reed. The the D's can fire Boehner, McConnell, Cantor...and so on say since the dems have the pres and vp they get to keep two extra but knock it down to basically 25% of what each party previously had so voters can start over. Televise during halftime of the superbowl, wardrobe malfunction or not this would still be way more entertaining that what they woulda shown anyway.

I dont go around guessing cup sizes either I just know a nice rack when I see one.

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fishmahn Said:
bobkat- In reference to reading this article with an open mind I agree. It's obvious that a few of the above  got past the first sentence before passing judgement and making a generalized,  attention deficit type, partisan rant.  
When I was in college I chalked up the type of reaction exhibited by many  here  to lazy, juvenile behavior.  Later on when I first began working professionally and witnessed this to a degree in nursing homes I thought ....perhaps senility?    Now it's clear to me.  Often times there's a combination of both that's alive and well in a sizable segment of our entire socieity.  As first glance it's amusing but when one thinks about it, it becomes disturbing

I remember when GW was in office all the liberals were demonizing him for over spending calling him the cause for the economic melt down and the huge national debt. Obama spends twice as much as GW doubling the national debt in two years and they say he prevented another great depression.

They demonized him(GW) for the war calling for him to be charged with war crimes. Obama takes office and he sends in more troops and they put him up on a pedastal praising him for all the good he has done in Iraq.
 
The fact of the matter is Obama hasn't undone one thing that the libs mercilessly criticized Bush for while he was in office.  

 "Play it Mr.Toot"

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fishmahn Said:
pigsticker-generalized one liners do not make a point.    Taking a case in point and stating your disparities does.  This isn't rocket science.   This is also getting to be a be a bit redundant.  Enjoy the day! 

I'm going to assume the redundancy below still generally applies to Fishy:

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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intro c-Did you read article?  I won't repost it as it's just one page back but "reread" the part below the picture where it begins  "Leave aside the internal.... and two paragraphs below the Granit state....  I think it will answer some of your questions.