Supply Side Jesus

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for fun

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multi-species-angler Said:

Multi, you missed the crux of the question. I'm not interested in "how" you try and negate others faith, more in why it is so important to you to do so.
 

for the same reasons you debate, argue, and discuss politics on FBO.  And of course to gain "followers" just as you believe the world would be a better place if every human was christian, I believe it would be a better place without any religion.  And arguing & debating it here with you guys is fun, so try to participate instead of getting all butt hurt.

multi, do you deny that Jesus was a real person?? Do you deny the exodus?

do you deny zeus? do you deny horus or muhamed and the tales told in those religious texts?  do I deny any of it, not completely, there's just not remotely enough evidence to convince me it's even worthy of being called a theory, even by your loose uncredible definition of a theory.  once you understand why you don't believe in all those other gods & beliefs, you'll understand why I don't believe in yours.

The jaded theme of this thread was that not a belief system debate. Although "supply side" was used in spoof and satire it was a call for soclialism. The left is always trying to paint Jesus as a socialist, as they are always trying to twist anything they possibly can to create the smoke and mirror affect they need. Jesus was anything but a socialist or capitalist, he was above such secular ideals. If you can't see that you are still blocking His message.

Yes of course, just the lefts, no one else ever twists Jesus or any other religion to fit their own agendas.

Faith is not tangible, it is a gift just the same. Some of the greatest minds in science are devout believers in God, and agree that the more they explored the depths of science the closer they have approached God. Faith is a gift, but as for them also a choice. We are not forced to accept it

some, yes there are some people who call themselves scientists that are devout to a particular deity.  Greatest minds? not so much, unless my and your opinion of greatest are greatly different.  how bout some examples?

Albert Einstein?

 

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multi, I don;t mind that you beleive differently than I or many others. My faith is based on what many religous people would perhaps raise an eyebrow  as well, so do not worry about me becoming "all butt hurt" over your insistance a God based faith is simply not possibly right.

I indeed am well aware of scientific accomplishments and truly  appreciate and understand the advances and means that the doctor that may save my life has avalible to him thru science. Science is a wonderful thing.

I also am aware that some times these docotors that may save my life experience things they themselves trained by science can not explain.

My curiousity comes in why you beleive faith based upon a persons convictions that are different than yours is necessarily a bad thing?

And if indeed you wish to debate this, please at the very least do so with a degree of courteousy and respect.

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I pray to the fish gods.  Does that count as a religion?

"Diligence is the mother of good luck."

"The constitution only gives people the right to pursue hapiness.  You have to catch it yourself."

"Well done is better than well said."

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

All by:  Benjamin Franklin.

"The solution to any problem - work, love, money, whatever - is to go fishing, and the bigger the problem, the longer the trip should be."

Author: John Gierach

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multi-species-angler Said:

some, yes there are some people who call themselves scientists that are devout to a particular deity.  Greatest minds? not so much, unless my and your opinion of greatest are greatly different.  how bout some examples?

These "not so great" minds could handle BOTH science and belief in God. It's not really the stretch you make it out to be. So IF someday He comes knocking it'll be OK to open your heart because some really really REALLY smart scientists were able to handle both.

  1. Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
    Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.
  2. Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
    Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)
  3. Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
    Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!
  4. Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
    Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
  5. Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
    Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.
  6. Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
    Pascal was a French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer and theologian. In mathematics, he published a treatise on the subject of projective geometry and established the foundation for probability theory. Pascal invented a mechanical calculator, and established the principles of vacuums and the pressure of air. He was raised a Roman Catholic, but in 1654 had a religious vision of God, which turned the direction of his study from science to theology. Pascal began publishing a theological work, Lettres provinciales, in 1656. His most influential theological work, the Pensées ("Thoughts"), was a defense of Christianity, which was published after his death. The most famous concept from Pensées was Pascal's Wager. Pascal's last words were, "May God never abandon me."
  7. Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
    In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God was essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."
  8. Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
    One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
  9. Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
    Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
  10. Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
    Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution.
  11. William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
    Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating).
  12. Max Planck (1858-1947)
    Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
  13. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
    Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

 

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"Yes of course, just the lefts, no one else ever twists Jesus or any other religion to fit their own agendas."

I did not specify Jesus, twisting any truth or assumption is right out of the book of Marx, Engels, and Alinsky.  Anyone and everyone will manipulate substance and nonsubstance at times, with the leftists it is their core.

"some, yes there are some people who call themselves scientists that are devout to a particular deity.  Greatest minds? not so much, unless my and your opinion of greatest are greatly different.  how bout some examples?"

Ahhhh, you're confident in your own great mind.  Good for you, enjoy that self made status just as long as you can...

Well when I say some of the greatest minds of all time I certainly would include devout believers in God such as Nicholas Copernicus, Johannes Kepler (personal favorite of mine, one of the most brilliant mathematical minds of all time and equally great astronomer -- laid the ground work for modern astrophysics), Galilea Galileo, Blaise Pascal, (another favorite, one of the great physicists of all time) Louis Pasteur, Sir Issac Newton, Gregor Mendel, Michael Faraday (Tesla, Bell, Edison stole from his brilliance) (Bell and Edison also devout Christians)

I might not have all the spellings right but that's just from shooting from the hip with the help of just one publication.  In polls and surveys taken since the 1800's there has always been a constant among those in science.  About 1 in 3 have always surveyed a belief in God, and a personal relationship with him.  A survey had not been taken real recently and in 2005 it was taken again.  They expected that number might fall.  Instead, 2 in 3 scientists claim a belief in God.  Richard Lindzen is one of the great atmospheric scientists in the world today, and he is a believer of God if you want someone presently working.  Some other recent notables would be Edward Larson, Werner Heisenberg, Francis Collins, and John Eccles.

Oh, and Albert Einstein?  I didn't include him as how devoutly he practiced his personal beliefs I don't think is known.  But he clearly denied atheism and was a proponent of intelligent design.  He believed in God, and stated that it is impossible for the universe to have NOT been created by God.

 

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Well done guywhofishes, I used a dusty periodical.  The internet is much faster.

At any rate, I think the athiest has lost faith in the point he was trying to pull out of the mud.  Now on to the next one, right?

 

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I've come to understand that some believe and some don't. While it's an important aspect of my faith to share with others, I also recoil from pushy faith-peddlers who show up at my door uninvited - so I'm pretty low-key about beating any bibles.

I don't think this is how Jesus shared his faith - nor is it how he expected us to do it. I live my life with as little sin as I can stomach (still WAY more than I am capable of but that's WHY I need Him). I  share my faith with those who ask, and pray for those without. It's really up to Him to change the minds of those who turn their back. While I don't feel happy about some rejecting I simply don't go out of my way to hunt them down either, since I don't like predatory behavior when it's foisted on me!

That said, some of the atheists are very predatory - which doesn't really help their cause much. Most people loathe being criticized or put down because of their belief and doing so isn't going to make them feel any different about what is a very personal decision.

Seems silly to decide if someone is good/bad or smart/dumb based on their faith.

 

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Alpine Said:
Well done guywhofishes, I used a dusty periodical.  The internet is much faster.

At any rate, I think the athiest has lost faith in the point he was trying to pull out of the mud.  Now on to the next one, right?

I did only attempt to "verify" about one quarter of those listed by looking at 2nd sources. The list does seem genuine/factual - but who knows in this day/age.

 

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door bashing is very lame, regardless of the motivation!!!
(except Publisher's Clearing House presenting a huge check)

multi-species-angler Said:
for fun

 

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I just prayed to get a big buck and a big antelope with my bow this year.  Thats all i got to say about that.

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Enslow Said:
I just prayed to get a big buck and a big antelope with my bow this year.  Thats all i got to say about that.

 

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Atheism is a religion if off is a TV channel.



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If you're going to search the internet for science or scientists that is a devout member of a particular religion, or supports & believes in gods you should look in places other than websites with religious based propaganda and agendas.

I'll start with the primary one we have all heard of.  Einstein, also one of the most well known anti-theists of his time.  this is in his exact words written in a letter he wrote shortly before he died.

... I read a great deal in the last days of your book, and thank you very much for sending it to me. What especially struck me about it was this. With regard to the factual attitude to life and to the human community we have a great deal in common.

... The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.

In general I find it painful that you claim a privileged position and try to defend it by two walls of pride, an external one as a man and an internal one as a Jew. As a man you claim, so to speak, a dispensation from causality otherwise accepted, as a Jew the privilege of monotheism. But a limited causality is no longer a causality at all, as our wonderful Spinoza recognized with all incision, probably as the first one. And the animistic interpretations of the religions of nature are in principle not annulled by monopolization. With such walls we can only attain a certain self-deception, but our moral efforts are not furthered by them. On the contrary.

Now that I have quite openly stated our differences in intellectual convictions it is still clear to me that we are quite close to each other in essential things, i.e; in our evaluations of human behavior. What separates us are only intellectual 'props' and 'rationalization' in Freud's language. Therefore I think that we would understand each other quite well if we talked about concrete things.

With friendly thanks and best wishes,
Yours, A. Einstein

 

Albert Einstein died as an anti-theist, known today as an atheist.  Again a word religious people like to use to categorize non believers.  What do we call people that don't play golf?

now of course at some point in his life, and all of the other great minds you have so confidently listed as devout believers, can all be tied to some form of religion, heck, I was even babtised catholic, probably even says it on my birth certificate somewhere.

Many of the other minds you listed often used the word "god" or referred to a "god" when they became stumped upon things they could not explain, but things that would be explained in the future nonetheless.

Now go back through your list and narrow it down to a select few more credible examples that may just hold a little more water than Einstein.  But remember, some of those brilliant people you listed lived in fear of being executed  for exposing their true beliefs and discoveries of that time period.  so lets try to stick with 20th century, where new discoveries are peer reviewed and critically analyzed instead of dispelled with a flaming man on a stake or a cross.

remember we're looking for devout here, not the maybe theres a higher power around the corner in the shadows of the unknown.

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Ahhhh, we've got the devout athiest chasing his tail.  They all end up that way in the end.

Believing in God, a true beleif, isn't devout??  Religion is man made fellowship full of dogma.  It can be very important, but one does not have to belong to an established religion to have a devout faith in God, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or any other.  Most of the people I mentioned had as devout faith in God as anyone I know.  it's well documented, we can take them one by one if you care.  

You cherry picked a verse from Al Einstein that would maybe suit your needs to a bit, a very little bit.  I too, if you noticed, had Einstein off to the side because while he clearly demonstarted his faith in God numerous times he also said things to the contrary to a degree, and it is unknown how he may or may not have practiced his Jewish faith.  
Unknown, that means I do not know and you do not know.

2 of 3 scientists proclaim a faith in God today, when they of course wouldn't have to. 
I don't think Richard Lindzen or George Washington Carver for that matter has or had any concerns about being persecuted for their faith.  The likes of Newton, Galileo, Copernicus were persecuted to a degree, and never backed down their belief in science or God.  

"A belief in science without God is lame, a belief in God without science is blind"

Albert Einstein
It is clear that Einstein was not an athiest.  Based on the readings I've done of him I would see him in the least as a deist.  Of our founding fathers the ones that were not Christian were mostly found to be deists.

 

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Multi,

OK - you win. Have a nice death. I've chosen to skip mine.

Guy


 

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guywhofishes Said:
Multi,

OK - you win. Have a nice death. I've chosen to skip mine.

Guy


LOL

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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guywhofishes Said:
Multi,

OK - you win. Have a nice death. I've chosen to skip mine.

Guy


I just hope i make the cut :)

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i prayed for a big muskie as i have a fresh bag of water softner salt and 30 jars to fill with pickled fish

 Adn

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The BEES, dont forget the BEES!!!

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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Enslow Said:

guywhofishes Said:
Multi,

OK - you win. Have a nice death. I've chosen to skip mine.

Guy

I just hope i make the cut :)

Rejoice! That's what Christ came to change! While the Jews (and other faiths) require you to "earn your way" or "follow the rules or perish", Christ has already paid our toll in full. God knew (after giving us rope and watching us hang ourselves a number of times) that we're too big of screw-ups to earn our way.

That's where GRACE comes into play. Even little stinkers like me get a golden ticket if we just believe in Him and simply try to be good to each other and sin as little as we can manage. Tada! Is it really that easy? Yep.

 

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Alpine- You listed Lindzen as an example as a  believer in God?  Aren't you somewhat throwing a black cloud over  believers everywhere

Lindzen clearly relishes the role of naysayer. He’ll even expound on how weakly lung cancer is linked to cigarette smoking. He speaks in full, impeccably logical paragraphs, and he punctuates his measured cadences with thoughtful drags on a cigarette.

 

Anyone who could draw this conclusion in the light of the evidence, and act on it as Lindzen has done, is clearly useless as a source of advice on any issue involving the analysis of statistical evidence.? I think you could find a better example somewhere.  Or is he a believer that sold his soul to the devil?  *lol*

 

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fishmahn Said:
Alpine- You listed Lindzen as an example as a  believer in God?  Aren't you somewhat throwing a black cloud over  believers everywhere

Lindzen clearly relishes the role of naysayer. He’ll even expound on how weakly lung cancer is linked to cigarette smoking. He speaks in full, impeccably logical paragraphs, and he punctuates his measured cadences with thoughtful drags on a cigarette.

 

Anyone who could draw this conclusion in the light of the evidence, and act on it as Lindzen has done, is clearly useless as a source of advice on any issue involving the analysis of statistical evidence.? I think you could find a better example somewhere.  Or is he a believer that sold his soul to the devil?  *lol*

 

Thats pretty good fishmahn I am impressed...lol

Hunt Hard and NEVER GIVE UP

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sdwxman Said:
 

good point... but I don't want to be one pixel to the left of the arrow. It's a black hole - ain't no getting out once you go in!

Which brings me to my homegrown theory that goes like this:
Cold is, by definition, the absence or depletion of heat.
Darkness is, by definition, the absence or depletion of light.

Notice that there is no measuring of "cold" - it doesn't exist. We use the word to describe the amount of heat (enthalpy) there is. Same with darkness or blackness. They don't exist... they are simply used to describe the lack of light, which we can measure.

So, what is evil? You guessed it... the absence of God. It's when and where God is omitted where we find evil.

That's my amateur theology lesson for the day. Thanks for reading.

 

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buckmaster81 Said:
The BEES, dont forget the BEES!!!

i do love some fresh honey

 Adn

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Typical leftist response by our chief resident bedwetter, fishmahn.   Nice site, did you check with Chris Mathhews, Bill Maher, and your friends at Al Jazeerra too?

I realize anthropogenic warming is a religion to you and the rest of the druid booger eaters, but what does ones secular view points (right or wrong) have to do with his belief in God?   There is no relation of course, just another leftist attempt to slant and twist an issue.    In that, well done ma'am!

 

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You guys ever heard of a cincinnati bowtie?  Its pretty gross.

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KurtR Said:

buckmaster81 Said:
The BEES, dont forget the BEES!!!

i do love some fresh honey

Where is Lycan and his backyard beehive?????

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Enslow Said:

You guys ever heard of a cincinnati bowtie?  Its pretty gross.

Is that like a dirty sanchez?

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