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bdog the real issue is disease but other like you want it to be about ethics because you feel you can win from that position. You should look back at my posts from 07 and compare them to those I have spoken today.
While the TB issue brings the issue of disease to the forefront, it has and always will be the prime reason I do not want baiting to continue. Like it or not, even small amounts of bait placed increase the risks of disease spread.
You last comment is a prime example of limit the amount one can put out a day. How about limit that amount to a 2 gal container and no more than that can be present within 440 yards of another baiting site and then all bait must be removed anytime one is not actively hunting!
I will support that type of baiting as it would effectively limit possible nose to nose contact and site contamination by having excessive amounts in an area.
In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!
With regards to the baiting issue, who open this can of worms in the first place. Can anyone tell me? I will be honest to say that I have baited deer for many years and have shot deer. But, what bothers me from what I have read is, I don't believe there is a difference between hunting a food plot or a bait pile, your still going to harvest a deer-buck or doe right? (For the way I bait, I use a 30 gallon drum with gamefeed spreader from Cabela's and will spread the corn over an area of about 20 feet in diameter.)
The problem with the way this bill is written, is that by banning baiting you are only addressing a small portion of the threatning problem. Here are a couple good reads about CWD at it's components. Just banning a pile of bait is not going to automatically solve the issue. It may make some of those feel better but eventually if disease is going to show up, it will!
"When we step into the outdoors, we have the privilege of standing in the presence of God through the power and majesty of His creation. That makes hunting more than a sport or a hobby. It's a calling to something greater. And that transforms the places that we stand into something more than a cropfield or a pasture or a mountain. It makes that place Hallowed Ground."
I don't care if there is a baiting ban or not. But please don't make it a disease issue-is is not. If disease was a issue ranchers would be doing everything in their power to keep deer from mingling with their cows.
CWD moves in states that ban baiting easily. There is another driver at play there. TB moved fine in Minnesota w/o baiting.
Using the threat of disease is poor. If the ranchers were worried about it All OF THEN WOULD BE DOING WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO TO PROTECT THEIR INVESTMENT.
Let's deal in reality Hardwaterman.
solocam, it is a part of the solution, and a needed one. bdog you keep insisting that it is not a disease issue but you bring absolutely nothing to the table to support that other than you opinion.
So let us look at the issue of disease and dispel some of the myths that seem to keep rearing up when people claim that baiting is not going to spread it more rapidly.
In northern MN they had a outbreak disease similar to bangs in cattle back in the 80's during a very harsh winter. Groups in efforts to help the deer cut trails and brought in food for the deer that where struggling finding food because the previous summer season was dry and hot and did not promote the growth of browse the deer need. The deep snow covered the hardwood seeds also that deer eat in winter as well.
About mid Feb does started aborting at alarming rates in the areas where feeding had taken place. It was present in other yarding areas but was 5 times higher where feeding was occurring or had occurred.
The testing done in the feeding areas confirmed that the disease was present in and around the feeding areas and was being carried into the bedding areas because of the constant walking through the urine and feces and saliva saturated areas.
The other areas where feeding did not occur but had concentrated feeding areas of browse had very low amounts of readable disease present and also the bedding areas also had low contamination levels.
Now arg2411 just described his feeding station one that puts the feed on the ground in a consistent area day in and day out. Compare that to a food plot where the deer will move through it feeding.
So now lets move forward to the MN outbreak, when the DNR started flying over the area they found many places where baiting of deer was taking place even though the ban was in place. They had not used aerial support in the past to find baiting sites and had discovered them either through reports or by doing checks and coming upon them.
This past fall they did use the planes to spot baiting and many of the citations where within the affected TB area. I was listening to the radio fishing up at LOW when one of the guests was a DNR representavie who stated that had baiting activity not been as prevalent in that area, the outbreak of TB would most likely have been limited in scope to two farms and the DNR and the state of MN would not have in all likelihood not had to spend near as much money as they did and if not for baiting cooperation by landowners would have been higher in gaining ground access as well to reduce the deer herd which had been documented as being a carrier of the TB virus.
So bdog you are so very wrong in your assumptions as to the real issue and concerns are over baiting. Feeders like arg2411 are just as bad as the guy dumping bushels upon bushels of corn.
Hunts apples not so much but can be if allowed to dump 5 gal a day over and over and over. So unless someone has a study that shows feeding and baiting activity does not increase the risk it is simply ignorant to make the claim that banning the activity of baiting would not be a significant step in limiting and be one of the right steps towards prevention as well.
I also have never said it is the only thing that needs to be done, but to not do this because we are not doing all of the other things right now is irresponsible and reckless!
Banning baiting is as of now a primary step in reducing risks, and I do not discount the supporters of this bill that want it banned on ethics reasons alone. It almost passed on ethics last time and I feel it will now with both disease issues being real and the ethics side of the equation as well.
Some areas of concern by people overlap. You cannot help it. Be it pro or anti baiting or those who are neutral on the issue.
If they are worried about spreading disease then the game and fish better fork up some money for classes for farmers on how to handle their grain. There is way more spilt grain piles by augers and trucks and people cleaning out their combines and farm equipment, that deer eat then there is put out for baiting over the countryside. I noticed the other day that the deer have made a perfect hole in the end of one of my alfalfa bales do you supose that just one deer was eating out that hole or did the other 30 take a bite. I am sure that would spread some saliva wouldn't it. I wonder what I should do about that because I can not chase them out of somebody would cry that I was harressing them and now I can't put feed out somewhere else for them and I can't put a fence around my hay. Baiting is not a bad thing if it can be controlled, I would much rather see people getting deer eaiser and controlling the population than watching sharp shooters piling them up in a hole.
I as a cattleman would have to support this bill on bait banning. If it passed it would slow the spread of a disease outbreak but would not stop it.
Bait piles create the worst possible conditions for disease spreading. The saliva, snot, urine and feces are all in a small area mixed into feed that makes it very easy to pick up and transfer disease.
If you have ever worked with cattle, you know that if you put calves into a small pen, eating and drinking out of the same bunks and fountains, the risk of disease spread is very high. If you spread them out over a 3 acre lot, the spread of disease is cut considerably.
This is the same reason that food plots and bait piles aren't the same thing. Deer spread out in a 3 acre food plot, won't contact each other nearly as much as when eating from a small bait area where other deer have been leaving snot, saliva, unine and feces for days on days.
I agree that bait piles and food plots are the same thing as far as hunting goes to a certain extent.
Some have said that they see deer and cattle together all the time, so do I. That isn't the point here though since that is the way it is in the outdoors. The point is that we aren't trying to stop disease spread from cattle to deer but from deer to deer and then back to other cattle.
Deer come to a bait pile from a couple of miles in each direction. If they get in contact and disease is spread, it is then carried back to they came from and can infect a cattle herd 2 miles away. All cattle are confined in distinct herds and can be quarentined in case of a disease outbreak. Deer can't be confined since they go wherever they want too.
Hardwaterman is right when he says that the cattle industry in ND is a big thing. Hunters don't want to hear it but that is why this bill will probably pass.
Remember, I said that it will help slow the disease spread, not stop it. Slowing it is what you try to do in a outbreak before you get it under control completely.
This whole baiting bill is a joke! I have recently taken a drive around my local area and have seen bunches of deer anywhere from 15 to 150 head in one field. If disease is going to spread it will spread with or without feeding or baiting. Anyway, bovine (cattle) tiburculosis comes from cattle if deer are infected it is because of the ranching practices. I think this problem could be addressed from a different angle. I assume that this bill will eliminate the use of mineral licks as well or those handy little mineral drips that many bowhunters use to get the deer to start patterning into a certaing ares. How long till they tell us we can't use deer lures or calls because it may not be considered fair chase? When it boils right down to it it is the fair chase issue that is driving this legislation, it just sounds better when we sound like we are concerned about the health of our herds.
onser why can't you put a fence around your feed stock? We did and many in my home area who deal with deer have done so are in the process of doing this as well. Yes you can run them off of your food stock it is not harassments either. Just another example of trying to justify the continuation of a practice that increases the risk of disease spreading!
bingo thanks for pointing what I and others have been saying on this subject.
Then I hope you contact the Stockman's Association and share your concerns. I also hope there will be discussion on better ways to limit deer and cattle contact. After all, it is in the name of slowing disease. That is the number one threat...deer coming in contact with cattle. I personally think it is crazy it has come to this but I can't get myself to muster the idea that hunters and the grandma outside the city limits feeding pheasants and deer are the people who are being not only blamed but burdened. This why I am sticking my neck out of the sand. I don't like doing it because I have oodles of friends, neighbors and future ranchers (folks I have to knock on doors for access) that are probably reading this. It isn't good for me to do this but I am doing it in hopes of shaping some compromise between the two. Obviously, this compromise exists in HW's go-to state on baiting...which is Wisconsin.
Now, while I believe you are an honest man I have hunted a lot of areas. I especially focus on food sources when hunting refuge or other lands during late season hunting. Since I don't feel like I need to write a book I'll just say over the years I have never seen 500 deer in one location in my life (not even the Parshall land parcel I often reference). I grew up two miles from a cattle rancher that owns thousands of acres of pasture and hundreds of heads of cattle. Never in my life have I seen 500 deer and if I had to pick a spot to go find deer herds like that it would be the ideal location. Perhaps your friend who ranches needs to allow hunting on this property? Now a hundred deer, I can believe. I have personally counted 37 deer in one NDGF 3-5 acre food plot located on Lake Sakakawea shoreline at one time. I'd like to know what the NDGF feels about this operation. They must have had to deal with it in the past.
But with all that aside, you mentioned he planted habitat and food plots. You are telling me that screenings are what brought the animals in? Especially during this winter? All we hear this winter from the NDGF is the need to create habitat. It's habitat that keeps the game afloat. It seems to me your rancher friend figured that out and is now benefiting from food plots and habitat. After all, they are the most supplemental and beneficial to wildlife. No one will argue that. Or shouldn't. And I must ask, why is your rancher friend putting out feed late into the winter?
Anyway, in 2007 I was against any ban. I had my reasons and like HW invited someone else to view his comments, mine are also still sitting in that talk forum. Over the last two years I shaped my beliefs in another direction (well curved them a bit). I'm not ignoring disease, in fact I am trying to make this ban more efficient and effective. I have stayed consistent on the beliefs of ethics. The whole argument doesn't hold water when you really think critical about it. With the comments coming in with about a 50/50 split on banning baiting why don't we take Hardwaterman's loose reason for supporting this bill, which is in the name of a "starting point", and make a bill that is comprehensive, yet filled with compromise.
-We should regulate the size of bait piles to five gallons.-Require piles to be spread. I originally said 2 inches in height but I say it should be spread even more.-Ban mechanical feeders and maybe other feeder types (at least during deer season).-Require permission from the landowner to place bait on their land.-Bait locations must be no less than 440 yards (one quarter mile) from one another.-Baiting can not take place in a pasture or other land where cattle are actively grazing (who would bait where cattle are at anyway?).-The baiting or feeding of wildlife cannot take place near cattle feed lots, food sources or other areas cattle may congregate.-The person utilizing bait is responsible to ensure weed infestation is managed. Most people are smart enough to use clean sources of feed...but some aren't.-If there is such a scare of disease over there and basically none west of the Red River maybe there needs to be a ban similar to what Wisconsin has done where feeding nor baiting of any wildlife can take place within a certain radius of the Red River? That's just a thought.
Those are just some ideas that would work for a "starting point." The NDGF can then collect comments from hunters and landowners on how it is going and then adjust rules accordingly. I kinda doubt that will happen though since the NDGF has had the ability to put regulations and even bans in place for years. Maybe the willingness of hunters and wildlife feeders to be conscience of their efforts is enough to get them to work together?
But back to my original thought way at the top of this forum, if compromise and regulations cannot be agreed upon than we must ban all feeding and baiting of wildlife. We must also begin discussing ways to reduce cattle to deer interaction at common feeding areas. In other words, we work together on a compromise or we work together on a plan that accommodates the fear factor this bill was originally drafted for (or so we are led to believe).
Oh and HW, you keep asking for evidence. One person had emailed me and mentioned, how about the fact that hunters in North Dakota have been baiting and people have been feeding wildlife for years and years and there hasn't been one disease outbreak. I just had to throw that in there because not only have I got it in email from a one person I have gotten from a couple others. And it is a rather simple yet honest example.
Regardless of what any of you believe on this matter just simply contact your legislators and maybe extend those thoughts to the Natural Resource Committee members. Personally, come ban, come compromise or come failure this bill will not affect or effect me in any way. Plus, I can finally rest! We have until Feb 12th. If it makes it out of committee it will then go to the Senate. First time in my life I am wanting time to fly!
This is simply getting ridiculous.
If your going to eliminate the feeding and baiting of deer in the name of disease, then every cattle rancher or feedlot operator needs to be required to implement a means of controlling their feed with high fences and any other deterrents. There is no sense in telling the hunters they can't put feed out but allow wild animals to interact with cattle at a ranchers food source for fear of disease outbreak. This simply contradicts the proposed bill. Every control needs to be implemented and enforced if this is the way it's going to go.
Do any of you see how ridiculous this is? You simply cannot stop disease. Yes maybe you can try to limit the spread of disease it but if your going to try then you must pull out all the stops! It simply cannot be half speed directed at the hunting community. Ranchers too must be regulated and controlled. Bird feeding as well. Pheasant feeders also target deer. Mineral licks in pastures for cattle should also be eliminated.
My point is: where do you stop. I could go on and on and on and on....it's just ridiculous in my mind.
This is my BOOMSTICK!!!
It's evident they would rather pass a bill with loopholes in it and spend the next 10 yrs. and our money while they amend it!
Tim I wish you could make the trip to see the situation, I grew up not to far from where the place is and just a few miles from it is one of the most beautiful habitat areas that exists in that part of the country.
This winter it is surrounded by CRP and corn and bean fields. Many of the locals refer to it as the "sanctuary" because for years the owner was the only one who ever hunted it.
The landowner watched the winter yarding increase and also the number of deer that where using it continually and started allowing bow hunting in it. Lots and lots of does and some very nice bucks where taken out of this area. The landowner as he aged became more concerned with health of the herd than putting a trophy on the wall and now allows some rifle hunting and muzzle loader hunting with restriction on how it is hunted. Stand hunting only no drives.
Well this winter that habitat is not holding hardly any deer even though large numbers occupied it during rifle season. There are lots of pheasants but few deer. Most of them moved to the area where bait was being dumped on the ground and they stayed.
So anytime you want to witness this first hand give a ring! My guess is that snow depth is part of the reason for them staying concentrated this year at levels never seen before. Once they got there and the baiting was taking place winter dumped a lot of snow and with the drifting has made travel back to their normal areas next to impossible.
Now back to compromise, I posted to bdog that if we allow bait why would it not be reasonable to remove it when a person is not hunting?
The purpose of bait is to program animals to come to that location over and over and over and when bait is put in the same spot over and over the area or container gets just as bingo described. We had pail calves for years on the farm when we milked. If one of them started to show any sign of sickness we separated them from the rest in an attempt to keep the others from becoming infected.
Sometimes it worked other times it did not. For those of you who grew up on a farm or ranch with cattle. Think back to disease issues that would occur. Scourers,pneumonia are two we had on occasion.
Scours was the one I remember the most having issues with. We never had trouble in cold or dry calving seasons, but always had trouble when temps and conditions created a moist environment that allowed the virus to grow. It seemed once it got into the herd it ran through almost all the animals unless we kept the new born separated from the infected areas.
Baiting creates almost identical situations where infected animals are lured into areas where healthy disease free animals are and soon there is less and less disease free deer and more and more who either carry the virus or are affected by the virus.
But we seem to continue to travel in circles, Tim gets it, we may not agree on the direction this bill should go at this time, but he gets it. Others refuse to look at the facts about disease transmission because they do not want to, because they want to continue to bait.
Oh and Tim, check with the G&F on the deer disease issue, I think you will find that the emails are not correct. I may be wrong on that, but I do remember something in regards to deer disease issues having taken place in the north east and also in the south east in years past. Also something to do with Bangs also!
I seriously might have to head your way. I'd like to see 500 deer at one time. Won't be able to make it over east this weekend or the next three because of prior commitments (two upcoming fishing tourneys and of course the Super Bowl). Maybe you can take a photo and post it on the site for us? I would just like to see 500 animals. That's pure amazing.
And as for disease, so me, HW and jackson are all right. If we are concerned about disease we must take the precautions. I guarantee there are more cases where domestic animals have infected wildlife with their disease. So we must not be hypocritical. All the more evidence.
And I think there is a lot more than just me that are getting it.
Just a thought:
If I put out bait, it is intentional. So I am purposely congregating animals into a very precise location.
There has been numerous references to ag feed and waste. My thought is that those situations are incidental. So while it does happen the intention is to feed cattle rather than congregate deer. There are similarities yet the differences are huge.
I think it is very easy to regulate the intentional dumping of bait - as easy as ban it. The idea of regulating ag products is just not feasible as it occurs over a majority of the state for the entire year.
Comparing the two is somewhat of an apples / oranges comparison.
Some folks just want to bait and will cling to any argument. There are plenty of good reasons to bait or not allow bait. The one mentioned above is not one of them.
Neither is a song bird feeder but I suppose someone saw a deer eating from one of them as well.
I do believe this bill will pass eventually - maybe not this year but in time. Again, I tend to sympathize with folks on both sides of the issue as there are both winners and losers here.
To me myself I do not care if baiting is ban or not, but for my 14 year old son who is blind to get him on deer and be able to shoot one even over bait. Seeing the excitment in his face when he gets one brings me more excitement than shooting one myself. So if baiting is ban I hope they put in a clause for the handicaped so they can enjoy the hunting and harvesting of deer like everyone else.
whitesmoke and others,
that is a total cop out.
Disease is disease. Just because feeding your herd is normal agricultural practice doesn't mean that it's right. I mean in your guys' defense, baiting is legal but that doesn't make it right, if i'm to understand you all correctly.
As for the ranchers and hunters, the effort needs to be made universally. Why is okay for some to leave piles of grain on the ground and others not? Game can come into contact with those agricultural piles just as easy as a bait pile. Ah, I know why, because it then becomes an ethics issue. Double standards, it's okay for one practice but not another even though the end result is the same? Give me a break!
My first line should have read feeding your herd with piles of grain or minerals. It is right to feed your herd but why would it be okay to feed without restriction if your not going to allow big game enthusiasts to feed or for that matter regulate where and how the deer are feeding with cattle.
pigsticker - First off, I have never said baiting is right or wrong so just get down from your stump before you go too much farther.
Nearly 90% of the land in ND is ag. So just how would you go about eliminating wildlife from coming in contact with an ag product?
Precisely my point whitesmoke.
This issue has gone too far in my opinion and it never should have been an issue in the first place. It was thrown out two years ago but here we go again. Why, because some people refuse to take no for an answer. The state didn't see it as a threat but several prople are bringing it back again.
As for my attack on you, it simply was not meant to be that way if it sounded like it. I am not up on a stump and I try to get my points across with offense to no one. people can have rational discussions and my comment at the end was in reference to the lunacy of this whole issue, not towards you. I value your opinions and can see that you were making a point as well as was I. I just obviously stated mine poorly.
As for the feeding of cattle. Yes it is done yearly, so is big game feeding in a lot of areas. Obviously ag practice far outweighs the other but all my i'm saying is why is it okay if deer come in contact with another so long as it's at a feedlot or haystack but it's not if a hunter has a hand in it? Disease doesn't care. If this is the argument than there simply should be other laws enacted directed at the ag industry to protect the herd that everybody is so concerned about.
I guess I try and see all aspects of an issue and imagine the consequences of action and not just focus on the task at hand and worry about what to do next.
Those is support of the baiting ban just seem to think eliminating a pile of food placed by a hunter is going to solve the threat of disease. Do you guys know and I'm sure you do how many piles of grain lay beside a grain bin all fall. Are you as farmers going to be responsible and pick up every bit of spillage. Fact is, you can't and deer as I said before are opportunists and will find that and feed on it together. Same reason they head for a rancers hay bales come winter. Easy food!!
So am I still able to sit on a trail leading to a pile left by the elevators once their storage capacity is full? There are some dandy highways to them.
Solo and Tim,
Wonderful points! This would be way to hard to control.
To me this is an ethics issue and nothing more. Some view baiting as wrong and would use any excuse to ban it. Disease happens to be a wonderful scape goat but the reality of it is, if disease is our reason then everybody would have to be regulated, including farmers, ranchers and even Mrs. Peabody's bird feeder. So sad it's seriously come to this.
I can see the game wardens now-- "Sir, my range finder shows you are too close to that pheasant feeder over there."
pigsticker - I do realize what you are saying.
I also try to keep an open mind. Again, I tend to ride the fence on the whole issue as some folks will be hurt.
I guess I do believe disease could be an issue and anything the sportsman can do to help prevent the introduction and spread of disease is the responsible thing to do. When I go boating I try to make sure my boat is clean of vegitation. I have done that long before it was a requirement because it was the responsible thing to do not because it was the law.
I also believe it is the rancher's duty to be responsible and that would mean reducing the contact with wildlife through reasonable means.
If disease starts they have their lifeline at stake. I tend to assume that is much bigger than my chance at a P&Y buck. I suppose there are those that would argue though.
So, yes, pigsticker I see your point. I hope you can see the other side as well.
When do they vote on this?
Great point solocam - Deer are opportunists. Why can't Hunters be opportunists? I think it is sad when we are told which way way we can and can not hunt! I bet Obama is behind this?LOL
Pigstinker and Solocam
The two of you just don't get it. According to Harwater, Tim is the only one. How come our thoughts are considered childish and ignorant. I'm not trying to destroy the bill I just want it written right. I don't care ban it the way it is written so in the end if times are tough for my rancher buddy I can help him sell deer hunts out of his feed lots.