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Call me crazy, but I think it may have to do with ranching being a little more important of a practice to this country than baiting.
All the more reason to take percautions on both accords.
You make way to much sense so you must be a MASTERBAITER!
I've pretty much lost interest in discussing the baiting issue for several reasons.
That said, you are right that it is a double standard why baiting is in questin and ranching isn't. I'm just saying that the reason ranching isn't in question is because a whole heck of a lot more people stand to gain a whole heck of a lot more than any one does with the baiting issue. Right or wrong, CWD and TB or no CWD and TB, I can see baiting one day being banned but not ranching for obvious reasons.
That should read, "they stand to LOSE a whole heck of a lot more..."
I thought we were getting an edit feature for correcting one's typos. What happened to that?
Tim first and foremost, the TB outbreak in MN was a result of a cattleman ignoring the laws. However, the problem with containment arose as a result of deer spreading the disease from feed lot to feed lot and to other deer.
Banning of bait and feeding will reduce the likelihood that infected animals from across the river will not move into ND and as a result cause contamination of the herds in ND.
In addition, baiting causes conditioning of animals in seeking out a food source that has been given to them in many cases in great quantity and they stay in that area even after the source is removed. Also conditions as to where and how that food source is eaten has a good deal of impact on the risk factor of disease spreading within the confines of the wild herd and also the likelihood of cross contamination to captive domestic animals.
Like I said before if you want a zero chance of deer/cow or cow/deer cross contamination then the simple fix is to kill all the frigging deer in the state period!!!!!!!!!!!! Otherwise to say this is suppose to guarantee that disease will not spread is simply an attempt to derail legislation based on the excuse that the bill does not go far enough in your mind.
Sorry I cannot and do not buy that and the science behind my position supports the fact that baiting increases the risks of disease spreading both in the wild herd and then back into the domestic cattle herds.
I understand the points regarding cattlemen needing to take ownership in protecting their herds. But right now, neither the House or Senate are going to tell Rancher A that he has to feed and store his food stocks behind deer proof fencing.
To expect that is one just plain ignorant or two the goal of those that want baiting to continue as a ruse to derail a good step in helping minimize and or localize or quite frankly keep TB out of our wild herd as well as the domestic cattle.
TB is only one issue,there are other diseases as well that can and are transfered by deer into cattle herds because the disease does not affect deer in the same manner as it does cattle.
So for all of you who are crying and saying it does not go far enough, fine push for more efforts to limit the possibility of disease, but realize that for those of you who are crying for this that are doing so simply as a way to derail this bill to allow for baiting to continue. I think the Leg will see you for what you are. I know I and others like myself will make every effort to expose you and once exposed your credibility because of your outright deceit will way in favor of banning baiting!!!!!!!!!
I do not deceive myself in thinking I will change anyones mind on this issue on this forum. But I do know that many of the Leg read these types of threads and by exposing you here, and again in the NRC hearings, your petty attempts of subterfuge will not win out!!!!!
In my lifetime I have seen fence row to fence row farming and the return of CRP and game to the landscape.Now we face again the prosepect of fence row to fence row again! Sportsman are our own worst enemy in that we fail to look forward and focus to much on the now!
what are you worried about tim? arent you friends with ranchers. should be able to throw some feed out or just sit on the feed areas - especially where corn is ground in with hay - and get a shot. yeah it does seem goofy with the whole bati scare because there are many areas up in the nw where deer are feedingin the same area as the cows, especially now. with this ban only the ranchers will be able to benefit from feed so looks like better start making friends....
The travel of disease isn't going to stop because of bait. The problem is domestic animals feeding with wild animals. This ban does nothing to stop that. If the goal is to slow it down then kudos. I thought we wanted more. Although, I don't think it will slow it down anyway.
Like I have said to others in emails, I imagine I am now considered one of the biggest feeding and baiting people in the world. Plus, I suppose I am now the most hated by ranchers because I am implying things in regard to domesticated and wild animals being the problem. That's not what I want but since I am not going to hide my thoughts in the name of covering my butt (I'm not a big baiter nor do I want ridiculous regulations in place on ranchers). The thing is, the question is on the controlling of disease. This bill doesn't do that. Some want to just get the "ball rolling" when I think that's irresponsible.
Sometimes I should take my mom's advice and keep my nose out of things...pun intended or not intended? Not sure?
So I can pour corn on the ground as long is on the cattle side of the fence? Then I won't have to worry with a ban on baiting for one of my spots as it is next to a cow pasture.
Your second to last paragraph doesn't scare me. Ha ha!...especially when I am in favor of having bait banned (or at least tightly regulated). I say why waste tax paying dollars by not doing it the right way! It's like homework in High School. I didn't get full credit for my story problems unless I got the right answer.
Lastly, if some legislator plays games like this than what the hell is the comment session for? Why do we elect our legislators? What's it all about? I mean, the goal is to contact legislators and tell them to ignore very good comments because they might make too much sense and therefore deter a bill from being amended and passed with logic? Sometimes I start to wonder...
Good Points Tim,
I also was going to stay out of this, but BS is BS and sometimes you got to call a spade a spade.
I also like Ranchers and if they were all deer proofing their operations and felt a ban on baiting would help. I would say let's do both. But when its only taking away baiting and not fixing the real problem (cattle and deer eating together) it's simple minded thinking.
You have a free roaming animal that is not confined. To prevent them from coming in contact with cattle is nearly impossible. So what can you do, first educate the cattlemen on methods that reduce the possibility of co-mingling. This information has been out and put in practice by many already. Second take and eliminate a practice that programs wild animals to seek out cattle feed. Banning of baiting and feeding does this, but like so many seem to continue to ignore nothing is a 100% guarantee and to claim that until we have such a thing it is more prudent to do what we know is good science!!!!!!
Give me a frigging break!!!!!!!!!!
If the powers that be really want to ban baiting, I wish they would just drop the whole "disease" issue. Sure, in the perfect storm it could help spread disease from one animal to another, but it certainly won't be the cause of it or the main means of disease transmission with all of the other ways that deer and livestock intermingle and that big game animals intermingle with each other, it is pretty miniscule...and this is coming from someone who does think it should be banned. The disease angle just isn't a very powerful leg to stand on to eliminate baiting. I wish the Game and Fish would move it to the bottom of the list rather than concentrating on it so much.
Bdog said it best about you! I really think you don't care about the disease part of it. You also have good rational thoughts like kill the frigging deer herd.
You know, I have to agree. I think more and more it is a smoke screen. BUT, I won't refute the idea animals can spread disease. Even though, they have been doing that since the beginning of time. And HW, I don't think it is possible to keep animals from mingling, but it can be cut down significantly on the feeding among one another. Down by Beulah on the way back from the buck contest there were six deer laying against some bales next to the feeding area. I chuckled to myself. Not that I think it is wrong I just was reminded of what is blossoming into another dandy talk forum.
Still, I think it is just as wrong to throw ethics into this discussion Crust. My only problem with baiting is the truck load baiters and the mechanical feeders. Other than that, a water hole, corn cob laying on the ground from a food plot and a responsible bait pile are all the same.
I wish this bill was up sooner than Feb. 12. I don't know if I'll make it! Heh, heh...
You think stopping baiting is going to de-program a wild amimals mentality. Deer are opportunists and they will always flock to the nearest/easiest food source whether it be a farmyard or whatever.
"Second take and eliminate a practice that programs wild animals to seek out cattle feed"
This sentence has no credability if you ask me. As for my credability, I stand by ever post I have written. You can ban baiting but you need to ban the artificial feeding of wildlife also. There is no regulating it otherwise.
"When we step into the outdoors, we have the privilege of standing in the presence of God through the power and majesty of His creation. That makes hunting more than a sport or a hobby. It's a calling to something greater. And that transforms the places that we stand into something more than a cropfield or a pasture or a mountain. It makes that place Hallowed Ground."
BAW, my guess is that you have interpreted my posts that said we should let this winter do what it is going to do to the wildlife this year as saying, "kill the friggen deer herd". There really is nowhere to even start with you, so I won't. I've seen other people try it and where it got them. No thanks.
Tim, I appreciate the fact that I can actually have RATIONAL discussions with you (and a lot of other people on this site). That being said, I'm pretty sure you know exactly why I choose not to even post my comments on FBO about this topic anymore. BAW just served as a great reminder to me.
I was much like you the last time this issue came up. I supported an all out ban then, I do not now and here's why.
Last year I had some health issues that limited my time scouting and hunting. I have a friend who is partially disabled who has baited forever. We discussed this quite a bit and he pretty much convinced me that a bucket of apples scattered under a tree in the woods is really no different then hunting near a waterhole out west or hunting over a mock scrape or near a scent canister of some sort. It's simply drawing an animal in using a tool like any other.
I spread a bucket of apples in the woods a couple times last year when my time was limited and believe me when I tell you that kind of baiting is not going to spread any diseases or endanger the cattle herds in this state. There is simply not enough bait for nose to nose contact. The bucket is generally gone by the first night. I never witnessed any nose to nose contact and there was never more then two or three deer there at one time.
Now I am all for regulating the amount of bait used, or the distance between cattle and bait sites. To me this would be just as easy to enact and enforce as an all out ban. It will eliminate the large scale baiting by outfitters and greedy landowners, which are the piles where disease is most likely to be spread, but still leave a tool for responsible hunters.
It looks like to me BAW is just pointing out some questionable thought. From what I gather he is in favor of the ban if it is done so in a fair fashion. The whole kill a deer heard thing comes from Hardwaterman's comment above. Hardwaterman said the only way to ensure disease didn't spread was to kill all the deer. Ironically, the deer are the ones that suffer most when a cow infects them. I don't mean that in any way against the rancher. Argh, my ranching buddies are going to give me grief.
Your post is a good one, but with all due respect (and I do mean that) I've noticed a lot of people here THINK they know how I feel and where exactly I stand on topics like this. I've had some very good conversations over email or over cold beer with quite a few members of this site about a lot of the topics that come up on FBO time and time again, this being one of them of course. It's amazing how much more gets accomplished in a friendly discussion when you don't have so many lurkers throwing in what they think are clever jabs. I don't disagree with anything in your post but would definitely be up for knocking this topic around with you if you have email.
Mabye the order of posts is what got me annoyed by BAW's comments. If so, sorry about that BAW.
Crust sorry I was talking to Hardwaterman.
Another thing is I don't know many people that feed or bait deer where cattle are present. Not a smart idea for many reasons.
Crust nature will take its course this winter no doubt about that. Just like the weather cycles the wildlife come and go with cycles.
my bad BAW. I probably should have read more posts or actually not posted at all. Tim, I just sent you a mega-email about this topic with about 40 typos in it. Enjoy!
Not sure if anyone touched base on this but deer are wildlife that are wild free roaming and are going to gather where they want bait piles feedlots corn fields and so on. So is this really trying to curb disease spreading or someone upset that you have more deer on your land then mine? Also i really believe that if this bill passes it will make more crooks out of people simple because they will not stop baiting and they lack of access to land.
BAW my comment was to point out that the only way you eliminate any possible deer/cow crossing is to eliminate the deer. I guess I could have said eliminate the cattle as it is as realistic.
Tim, from the G&F position and the video they put out, it is clear to me at least they see this as an ethics issue as much as a disease issue. I would be surprised as I have said before if when testimony is given they do not focus on that in an equal manner.
I think it bothers many in the G&F that we have people from out of state that have bought land in the bad lands area who are baiting deer off of the public land reducing opportunity for people who hunt out their.
I myself have said before that I have ethics issues with baiting and the negative perception it casts upon hunting and hunters in general.
Some of those examples can be seen in ads run by commercial operations touting the numbers in the 1000's they dump out each year during hunting season to lure in the does and in turn bring in the bucks after the does.
Never have pretended or implied otherwise. But I will ask again of any of those who think the disease issue is a smoke screen if they attended any of the meetings in the NE part of the state concerning this issue?
If you did, what where the landowners saying and asking for?
What where they concerned with and why?
To pretend that baiting does not pose a significant risk of nose to nose contact or deer eating from the ground where it has been saturated with urine and feces is plain ridiculous.
Hunt, part of why you did not see much nose to nose is really the type of bait you placed. Had that been salt or corn or molasses the results of your observation would have been very different.
When I was in WI one of the favorite things they used was pumpkins and they would drive over them to break them apart. One stand on another property I could see had a single pumpkin out broken open. 7 deer where eating on that pumpkin all of which where very much nose to nose.
So since it seems we have come full circle on this again, give me a single study that shows baiting or feeding does not increase the risks of disease because of the feeding behavior it creates?
And another bit of food for thought, why only the concern about deer/cattle disease issues, why are none of you worried about the risks of disease that can spread that is confined to deer themselves.
This issue is rather interesting by the way in regards to landowner activity and to be blunt trophy hunting and baiting. I had a conversation with some friends from back home today who are in town.
Seems that one of the landowners back home that has planted habitat, food plots and such felt he was not holding enough deer the last few years especially for late season bow hunting. He started putting out screenings he collects while auguring grain in and out of his storage bins. Prior to deer season we would commonly see 100+ deer on or around his property. Well now that we have snow and cold that number is sky rocketed to over 500 and they are causing him huge problems to the point where he has to have someone open and close the gates while he drive through to get bales for his cattle as the deer will run in right past the tractor.
He was in town complaining about this and I guess almost got run out of the coffee shop because of the situation with the bait dumping he has caused not only for himself but for his neighbors and also the vehicles because his property borders a US highway.
Now I do not know how much bait he put out, I do know that he was baiting until he arrowed a buck in mid Dec. A prime example of what most of us who want baiting to be banned look at.
His property always holds good numbers of deer year around and even in winters past like 97 the numbers never sky rocketed to the levels they are now. What his actions have done is pulled deer from other habitat to his area simply because of the use of bait.
They came and stayed and from the comments made by my friends they are not doing well overall. Had those animals stayed dispersed the reality is that they would have been spread out over other areas and would now not be eating themselves out of food supplies.
So once again are his unregulated actions fair and or ethical to the rest of the people he has affected let alone those who hunt that unit who are very likely going to have reduced opportunity next year because of the losses to the herd he has caused?
Hence the real agenda shows itself. I knew this was about people being upset about others supposely pulling deer off of their property, or thinking baiting is unethical. But let's use the disease card to get er done.
Limit the amount of bait one can put out daily and let's move on.
I just left MacDonald's Ranch on 1804 there are about 12-15 deer eating right where the cows ate and there is cow crap and urine all over. Sounds pretty healthy to me.
But, let's ban baiting cause it might not be healthy for cows. Heaven probid those deer were eating somewhere else where there are no cows.
What a joke.
sould read heaven forbid