Article from Fair Chase: Boone and Crockett magazine

"From what I have found out, if this guy is a hunter like he says he is, the only thing he hunts are paper targets.  I could not find any hard evidence that the Peregrine Fund is associated with PETA.  But you can connect the dots pretty easily."


Yea you can find PETA and HSUS folks hidden in a lot of the so called "sporporman's groups".   

Use your resurch skills and see how this program will benifit Hunting in ND.

http://www.fishingbuddy.com/battle_brewing

"

I swore I'd never check in to this web site ever again.  But this is too much!

Yes, Bill Cornantzer is one of the most ardent and finest fishermen and hunter that I know!  And I know a he!! of a lot of them!    He is also an hunting dog trainer, a falconer and an honest all around good guy.  Also an ardent conservationist and an objective physician and researcher, whether it be dermatology or lead ingestion in humans and raptors, one of his hobby interests.  I believe he shot about 4 deer last fall, all with non lead bullets, as I did, by the way!    Except for a few shot with my "real" muzzleloader with real lead round balls - not those ridiculous things you guys use to extend the rifle season so you cann get your name published in that silly B & C magazine!   Another topic for another web site, though..... 
Since when does anyone have to be an epidemiologist to perform relevant and objective research on anything in the scientific world???  ASnd EPIDEMIOLOGIST??   Huh???    Whomever wrote this drivel above doesn't have a single clue of what he is talking about!    Thats one of the absolute stupidest statements I've ever heard on this subject, and there have been a lot of very stupid ones, too!  
Hunters and fishermen should be on the cutting edge of conservation and should objectively look at this problem.  If we don't someone else certainly will, and then you will all howl and scream.  If we are, in fact, killing raptors with our gut piles, then it is an easy problem to remedy.  I just noted that all copper bullets whether for handloaders or loaded ammo is now a bit CHEAPER than traditional premium bullets.  So don't give me that argument.  Check Cabelas if you don't believe me!
Hunters would look much better in the eyes of people who will ultimately dec ide whether we hunt at all or what we hunt with, so using non lead bullets is a small price to pay and a tiny concession to make for the good of the outdoors. Not even a concession when you look at how well they kill (oops - harvest for you PC correct newbies)  If we are bull headed and refuse, OK, but don't beech and scream later on when we don't hunt at all.  This is 2009 - get used to it, open your eyes and mind for a change. A closed mind has NO visitors.!   Pretty quiet in most minds on FBO.  No need for doorbells!  
As far ashumans  ingesting lead in shot game - maybe it makes no difference, maybe it does!  I don't hink anyone knows the precise answer, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to eat heavy metal  fragments when there are such easy solutions to it!    But don't feed your pregnant wife or girl friend (for you 'family values' guys) lead unless you want them to be as narrow minded as some of you! 
As Anne Landers used to say, way before you were a gleam in your Daddy's eye "Wake up and smell the coffee!" 

But pleaser, NO MORE BS AND LIES  about Dr. Cornantzer, please.  A finer outdoorsman, fisherman, or conservationalist you will NEVER FIND!  Trust me - of course you "conspiracy idiots never trust anyone anyway!  What's new! 
Often I think that the modern young hunter doesn't deserve ANY priveleges to hunt and fish.  All me, me, ad nauseum.....and 'they are out to get us' crap!!!  Yuk!  
Oh, Skoalongcut, (better quit that skoal or get mouth cancer and have to see Dr. Cornantzer) I've never seen your smiling face donating money to DU, RMEF, RMMF, PF, and all the rest at any of their fund raisers.  you might have been there, and if so, I appologize and can only hope you support these organizations as much as Dr. Cornantzer and many of us concerned outdoorsmen do!   So you will have "stuff" to shoot - err- harvest!  
Makes me rethink donations.....

Bobcat,
Thanks for clearing up some misinformation.  Also, thanks for your opinion.  The information I got came right out of the magazine article.  Sorry I stepped on a nerve.  I have never met the man and I hope he is what you say he is.  I just don't like when hunters/outdoorsman have our options taken away from us all.  Our local wildlife club could not donate our meat to the shelters because of this ruling/findings.  I know some people who were tested for lead who eat a lot of venison shot with lead and had less lead in their system than people who have never eaten wild game.  In my opinion we need more testing on the matter and less grandstanding by nonhunter groups pushing for their own agendas.
In closing, I do belong to and donate to Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, National Wildlife Turkey Federation, North Dakota Stockman's Association and three local wildlife clubs.
Clint

"If you don't think this is the best day in your life... try missing one."

Stepped on a nerve?  Nope, you ran over it with a steam roller!  I was so incenced that this stupidity of personal attacks won't quit that I couldn't sleep last night!! 

I realize that EVERYBODY on here on  BBO is a scientist, a biologist, a chemist, a meteorologist, physician, public health officer, engineer, hydrologist, ad nauseum.
But not a single one of you seems to have learned the slightest thing about the basis of scientific research.   Do not pass go -  Go back to school!!   Oh, most of you have never been to post high school!!??!!   Then GO to school or read (if you can) and learn a bit about the scientific method.  Learn??  OOPS - that's the L word - not acceptable on BBO!   The other L word is continually used and strongly encouraged by management!!    
   In all of Science it is encouraged that one can attack and criticize the methodology of a research project, the data collection, and the method of arriving at conclusions!    THAT'S PROGRESS and how science advances in a meaningful manner.
But to ATTACK THE PERSON  on a personal basis is terrible (and reprehensible under our laws) and only shows that the attackers either are not intelligent enough to understand the research yet disagree with the conclusions presumably for their own gain, or have NO valid intelligent thing to critique the reearch with!  That is, they either are stupid and uneducated or don't have an6y legitimate criticism of the research.
Ah well, back in the middle ages instead of valid progressive criticism, they'd simply torture the researcher and kill him.  Some of you are doing the same thing in print!  Exactly the same mentality that has held the world back a thousand or so years!    People like that are not only allowed to vote, but to reproduce!     Reaqctionary (look up THAT meaning of the word 'reactionary' - I doubt many on BBO would know it in its true sense.)   

"PS Mauser, is this the only web site you haven't been kicked off???"

No Dr. bobcat that is not true.

skoalongcut read an article made a judgment of what he read and you have correctted him in a HUGE way.  

wow, sounds like the good Dr. should NEVER be questioned since he has so much more honor, integrity and all around good intentions than everyone else on this site combined..... Hell, maybe the G&F should give him the big 3 for life.   I'm sure none of the conservation groups mentioned above would ever have an agenda to undermine us low life average sportsman.   Nah, never ever.   They know best on everything and should never ever be questioned.  

another point,  I'd bet $100 the "good Dr." has significant stock in Barnes Bullets.

I'll take that bet.

PM me if you are up for it,

3XGutshot Said:
another point,  I'd bet $100 the "good Dr." has significant stock in Barnes Bullets.

For any of you who really want to know what the real story is, here goes, and it'll be my last comment.
Bill won't comment in websites because he doesn't want to get in silly arguments with people who will believe what they want to believe anyway.  He may kill me for posting this, but here goes.  "The Rest Of The Story!"
He was at the Hawk conference, the Peregrine fund or whatever it is called, because he is a falconer, and I think his dad was before him.  He got "joed" into being president on one of those "I-nominate-Bill-for-President-all-in-favor-say-aye-you-are president-now-Bill!    He says he didn't want it, and I believe him.  He's far too busy for the administration of some organization because he is so darned good at what he does!  If you don't believe it, try to get an appointment with him!   And that's just his work, and doesn't count time spent producing ND habitat and hyunting/fishing, falconry (a full time job in itself,,,,)  Back to the story.....   
At the conference he was impressed by  X-Rays presented by some biologist of dead deer killed by modern high speed bullets.   He thought "Wow, those things really explode and leave a lot of bits of lead in the carcass!"   Bullets nowadays are not your Grandfather's 30 - 30 and 45-70 bullets!   That we can all agree on!
When he got home he decided to follow up on it and find out if those bits of lead were left in the meat we all eat.  So he and a Radiologist friend thought "where do we get a large enough sample of randomly pulled packages of meat to see if there is lead in them and be truly as prepresentative of gunshot killed ground venison as possible?"   (Skoal's 'epidemiologist' would approve, even though he and his rah rah B & C friends totally misunderstand what an epidemiologist is or does) ! )  
They went to the food pantry (who have literally thousands of packs of ground venison) and at their own time and expense X-Rayed and fluro'd 100 packages.   Much to their surprise they found bits of metal in over 50!  They were expectin a little bit of metal, but never that amount!    So they extraced representative bits of metal and found, not surprisingly, guilding metal from the jackets and not surprisingly a LOT of Lead fragments!   This work can be verified by an other group's own radiologists or chemists, or whatever.....So don't insult our collective intelligence and say the results were "cooked!"  They were NOT! 
So, this is what he did!  Nothing more, nothing less!  End of staory as far as Dr. Cornantzer!      The public health department took it from there and ran with it with blood levels and all that.  (I still don't fully understand the blood level results, thing??)   But from here on the controversy  has NOTHING to do with Bill!  His conclusions are simply "Representative samples of meat from shot game in a ND Food Pantry were found to contain lead fragments in a little over 50%of the 100 samples."  Nothing more, nothing less...
It is important to note that Bill's results have been CONFIRMED and VINDICATED in EVERY study done in other states since then!  The Minnesota DNR, and elsewhere. Do your homework while you are chawing down your skoal!     Everyone on this web site should know that, assuming they can read.....
BUT, ever since then, Bill has been vilified in every hunting magazine (Sports Afield, now the B & C Rag, etc.) and by every hunting organization like the NRA, ad nauseum, and by several overweight talk show hosts!    And its obviousl that NONE of these magazines have done their homework or even remotely understand what Bill and his radiologist fiend have done.  They did a tremendous amount of hard work on their own time and expense and the CRAP from all these so called "hunters " and "conservationists" still  won't stop, and probably never will!!!!  
I've personally written the NRA and told them that if this continues I'm going to be like George HW Bush and demand my life membership back!  Also wrote to Outdoor Life magazine and others, telling them to do their homeork and get their facts correct for a change before passing on a lot of totally untrue stuff and allegations!   
NO ONE, at least no one connected to Bill (or myselft)  is out to stop hunting with lead bullets, even though it might be a good idea for a couple of reasons!  
1) As I mentioned in a previous post, everyone on FBO is a biologist, football manager, accountant, economist, global warming climatologist and Everyone knows all the answers!  OK, then.  From your posts, I assume all of you also have advanced degrees in human embryology and teratology and therfore from your posts you all must possess documented solid medical references proving that IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO FEED HEAVY METALS TO PREGNANT WOMEN AND DEVELOPING CHILDREN now that we know we are doing it and  when there is a simple alternative!   In case you all have misplaced your voluminous references, then just give me the name of ONE Obstetrician and/or ONE Pediatrician that thinks that this is a good idea!   As you are aware, the Food pantry's clients have a very high percentage of pregnant mothers and kids who come to collect and consume all that meat, some of which contains heavy metals.  Whether it hurts fetusus or developing kids, no one knows but now that we know that game shot with modern high speed expanding bullets contain significant amounts of lead is the food pantry going to continue to give it away???  Both for health and legal reasons???   I think not, but then 3X, our local ginius in all subjects  keeps saying I have no scientific background!!   Sorry I'm so stupid 3X but at least I try.... 
2) Yes, the thing started because of concerns of lead in gut piles and unrecovered game in the California Condor's reintroduction areas!  (Like it or not the science on poisoning them by this  lead is solid, despite what Rush and the NRA and other organizations say!~ - Deal with it!  Denial is de river in Egypt! Fighting legitimate research only makes hunters look like anti converstionalist me, me, goons! )     Do we have the "RIGHT" to poison other species while hunting, now that we know we are doing it and now that there are such other simple (now as cheap) alternatives?    IMO, we do not, but that's another thread you "ethicists" can kick around!  I assume you have advanced degrees in ethics, too.   

So criticise his and other's research on a thoughtful scientific basis if you want.  Please do!  That's encouraged and desirable in any field of scientific enquiry.    But PLEASE, no more personal attacks or character assasinations on an intelligent hard working, taxpaying, all American, well meaning researcher, simply becasue you may not like what he happened to turn up!    If that isn't the classical case of "Killing the Messenger" then I don't know what...... Ironically he got going with this research BECAUSE of his love of the outdoors and all of his outdoor activities fishing/huntin/scubadiving/falconing, etc. all over the world.  And this is how he gets thanked for it!   Yuk!

Personally I think the research he did was pretty darned good, being careful to set it up so that his results could be verified by any critical group of other researchers, the whole project could be repeated and verified or not, was statistically VERY significant (for your epidemiologist/statistician) etc.  In short, a very well done, well designed verifiable tidbit  (and verified elsewhere many times)  scientific  research!     Could any of you "bar school scientists" out there do the same?????   I couldn't but I assume everybody else on BBO could easily do it! 
Instead of 'thanks for the info - I never thought of that', he gets his reputation blackened, bad mouthed, and discredited as much as humanly possible!   (3X continues this crap by  still accusing him of making money from it via Barnes bullets!!??!! - GOOD GRIEF!)   3X, in my medical opinion you need to see a doctor, not a Dematologist or Obstetrician though  - perhaps a psychiatrist!  Seriously, - and I won't even send you a bill for that advice! 
I'm out of here..................
So if any onf you pahhen to run across more bad mouthing of Dr. Cornantzer, now you have it straight from the horse's mouth to straighten them out.  Please do!   (Maybe I believe in the tooth fairy, too) 

 "Seriously, - and I won't even send you a bill for that advice! 
I'm out of here.................."

That is about what the advice is worth.

Goodby

Dr bobcat

I am sure every article written about Dr. Cornantzer is tottally untrue no matter how many have been written. 

The people that would have recieved the deer meat are very greatfull to him no matter how much they needed the food.

How much of a decrease in deaths and sickness has there been after throwing out the deer meat, and after  Dr. Cornantzer study and reasurch?

Are you sure this is from a horse's mouth or.... 

Research involves reading more than a magazine article.  The fact that most hunters are not conservationists amazes me.

Anyone who is anti-lead, and has ever had their tires balanced, is a complete hypocrite.

This topic has been discussed over and over again.  It is what it is.  I will leave my comment at that.

Please folks, we can communicate without the little slams and creative wording that provokes outlashes.

Tim Sandstrom Said:
This topic has been discussed over and over again.  It is what it is.  I will leave my comment at that.

Please folks, we can communicate without the little slams and creative wording that provokes outlashes.

You are right,I could careless how much lead  based paint,tire wieghts,or anything else you want to put in your body.   I didn't like the way skoalongcut was jumped on over and over for posting this article that got his attention and expressed his opinion. 
Plus the fact that some folks who really could have used this meat that has less health risks than most meats you buy in a store. 

Research or job security??? 

Yes, skoal was definitely treated a little harshly for posting an article that came straight from the Boone & Crockett magazine.  But we can still communicate our opinions in a straight-forward way.  I'm not pointing fingers, everyone at a time or another has posted with poor choosing of words.  I just want everyone to take a deep breath.  you know, one of those step back and take a break breaths.

skoal,

Thanks for being a trooper with your response.  You did the right thing and did so in a respectable manner.