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Horsager's picture
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Advances in Agriculture

If CRP hadn't come about in the 80's and all that enrolled land would've stayed in production would we still have seen the outstanding advancements in yeilds that have been made?  I understand that in the beginning much of the land put into CRP was marginal and CRP was a form of erosion control but as the program progressed a fair amount of very good land was also enrolled.  By reducing the amount of tilled acres was innovation spurred or would it have happened anyway?

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I think so. In the grand scheme of things CRP acres are minimal.

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
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In my option, it had nothing to do with CRP.  But rather the speed of science over the past 20+ years.  If you look beyond crop science, everything has advanced at a very rapid pace.  In addition, the weather cycle has had a big effect on current yields.  The moisture we see today is beyond anything I have see in my life time.  Rain, more than genetics, is the reason you now see corn everywhere.  Yes, new varities have helped, but several other factors.

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It truly is a global market and influence any more. With a world population expected to double in the next fifty years, demands on food production and agriculture will be significant. I do beleive these advances in production would have happened any way. http://www.deere.com/en_US/ag/online_brochures/furrow/2011/furrow_february2011.html

Here is an issue of the furrow magazine that has an interesting article titled feedin 9 billion on page five. Go to ful screen and you should be able to read it.

There is one quote from the article. "over the next 50 years the worlds farmers must produce more food than they have produced in the past 10,000 years combined."

If one considers it , a challange indeed. Any way it is a good read on this topic with a couple of differing opinions on issues.

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it's all about companies and competition.  If you want to grow your company you better come out with new advancements.

 

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Goosefishmen Said:
In my option, it had nothing to do with CRP.  But rather the speed of science over the past 20+ years.  If you look beyond crop science, everything has advanced at a very rapid pace.  In addition, the weather cycle has had a big effect on current yields.  The moisture we see today is beyond anything I have see in my life time.  Rain, more than genetics, is the reason you now see corn everywhere.  Yes, new varities have helped, but several other factors.

Very astute observation.  As ND rides this cycle downward into a drier portion of our natural cycle, it will be interesting to see where corn survives. 

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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Allen Said:

Goosefishmen Said:
In my option, it had nothing to do with CRP.  But rather the speed of science over the past 20+ years.  If you look beyond crop science, everything has advanced at a very rapid pace.  In addition, the weather cycle has had a big effect on current yields.  The moisture we see today is beyond anything I have see in my life time.  Rain, more than genetics, is the reason you now see corn everywhere.  Yes, new varities have helped, but several other factors.

Very astute observation.  As ND rides this cycle downward into a drier portion of our natural cycle, it will be interesting to see where corn survives. 

Oh Allen,  if there is  a drier year it will be a "disaster".

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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when you speak of advances in ag what advances are you talking about? If you mean all the chemical use that is the only differance i see. Till the sh--it out of the land in the fall so it blows all winter and in the spring the ditches get filled with top soil from runoff. then you plant a crop and spray it all summer then kill it with roundup in the fall.
makes no sence to me .

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riverview Said:
when you speak of advances in ag what advances are you talking about?

The dramatically increased yeild potential.

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riverview, that is the most retarded thing i have heard all morning

 

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riverview Said:
when you speak of advances in ag what advances are you talking about? If you mean all the chemical use that is the only differance i see. Till the sh--it out of the land in the fall so it blows all winter and in the spring the ditches get filled with top soil from runoff. then you plant a crop and spray it all summer then kill it with roundup in the fall.
makes no sence to me .

In no way am I a farmer, or even close to any anymore......

Seems to me no-till farming is becoming more popular around the midwest.  I guided 3 different couples this last summer.  All had made the switch to no-till farming, and all were retired/semi-retired (if there is truly such a thing in the farming world).  So at their age newer advancements have made them make drastic changes in their operation which have led to higher yields and decreased operational expenses, thus more income.

Than again, what do I know.  It was only 3 farm families with significant acreage; by no means was it a scientific poll.

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Horsager Said:
If CRP hadn't come about in the 80's and all that enrolled land would've stayed in production would we still have seen the outstanding advancements in yields that have been made?  I understand that in the beginning much of the land put into CRP was marginal and CRP was a form of erosion control but as the program progressed a fair amount of very good land was also enrolled.  By reducing the amount of tilled acres was innovation spurred or would it have happened anyway?

This is one reason CRP is failing.  It was never, ever, ever, ever, ever designed to be a wildlife program.  It was to take out erosion prone acres, acres that were non producing and also played a roll in taking land out of production period to help with markets.

It soon became a program to gain a few bucks on your land instead of renting it out.  When that happened, land that should have never been put in was going in.  Then we as the public and hunting public especially got spoiled with an indirect benefit.  The ag industry is and always will be an important world stabilizer and necessity.  It also is a way to make money and a living.  So out the acres went.  Now we hold our heads complaining it is the bad farmer doing it.  When really, we sat idle for decades knowing the program would eventually go backwards.  In the meantime, we should have been developing a wildlife program that had indirect benefits such as erosion, etc.  But more importantly, one that actually welcomed acres that may have been suitable for farming, etc. 

Anyway, my morning rant.

But to answer your questions, I don't know if CRP has that much of an impact.  It is the world market we now live in.  We feed mouths all around the globe.  Coupled with the epa restrictions, market prices, input costs, etc we simply had to advance the technology.  Just the same we are now able to drill in the Bakken.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Allen Said:

Goosefishmen Said:
In my option, it had nothing to do with CRP.  But rather the speed of science over the past 20+ years.  If you look beyond crop science, everything has advanced at a very rapid pace.  In addition, the weather cycle has had a big effect on current yields.  The moisture we see today is beyond anything I have see in my life time.  Rain, more than genetics, is the reason you now see corn everywhere.  Yes, new varieties have helped, but several other factors.

Very astute observation.  As ND rides this cycle downward into a drier portion of our natural cycle, it will be interesting to see where corn survives. 

Hell, I am amazed corn survives where it does out west.  Never before were their corn fields.  Although, some of that has to do with the fact of ethanol and cattle.

I'm waiting for a soybean that doesn't need a bunch of September moisture.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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There are some who have the opinion that the world population has already exceeded the ability to feed it.  That might actually be true RIGHT NOW.

The next step comes from technology.  Transgenic research will unlock the key to the production needed to feed an even larger population.

Here's where it gets sticky for people farming right now.  The people that develop and own that technology will get paid for it.  The result is it will devalue the people who do the work of planting, growing, and harvesting that crop.  Forget about getting paid for doing those things at much more than say 150% of minimum wage. 

Sound bad for farmers?  Not really.  Whoever owns the land for growing crops will get paid well (already happening).  Commodity price swings will be wide.  Even more of your potential profit will be tied up in those decisions.  Volatility produces opportunity and if you miss opportunities you will suffer (already happening).

Finally, your competition is your neighbors (not just across the road either).  It doesn't matter if you are making money.  That's no longer the main factor.  You MUST be MATCHING your neighbors in profitability because you must be able to compete for resources with those around you.  Somebody will always be willing to pay more for land, pay more for the latest technology, pay more for labor to run their ever increasing operation, and develop economies of size that are hard to match.  If you don't have the capital to keep up, you will not survive.  The treadmill keeps moving faster.

Anytime technology starts to be the biggest driving factor, it is the people driving the technology who get rewarded (either funding it or actually developing it).  Our research Universities are bringing in unprecedented levels of research dollars from the private sector.  The result is that the private sector owns that technology.  Know one way that matters?  Fact: the most efficient University in North Dakota is NDSU.  It is NOT EVEN CLOSE.  This is in terms of State dollars spent per student.  The State of North Dakota has gotten a great deal from this.  I'm pretty sure the Legislature has no idea what this means though because they have refused to move anywhere near equity funding.

Downside?  Yeah, much less (not all) of the new technology produced is at low cost to our primary industry.  We don't get to own it.  The research dollars that produced it own the rights.  Think it's no big deal?  Take a look at your input costs the last 10 years and see how much more you are paying in technology driven fees.  The level of dollars invested in the crop in the Spring is at levels that nobody would have believed could happen.  Big risk and we're rapidly moving to a place where simply producing a high crop yield will not even begin to guaranty a decent profit.

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Farnorth,

Yup on many regards.

It is Walmart-nomics.  Sell a lot at a small profit.  Only way you can do that is invest in the technology and farm a lot.  Or be damn lucky to own a lot of quality land and only need to support a family of 2 to 4.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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Farmorth is very correct in his post.

And the food for fuel debate will intensify right alongside the price of oil and groceries.

There was mention of farm subsidies in another thread. It would be interesting if people took a look at what percentage of their disposable income they spent for food 10 years ago, what they are spending today, to compare it to what will be spent 10 years from now. As this govt moves away from a food security policy, it may become more evident what a bargin people were getting.
.
Even just track the increase in this years time frame. It is being suggested food costs will rise 30% this year alone. Multiglobal corporations are slowly gaining more control over agriculture by controling the technologies farnorth talks about as well as the processing. . In the long run, this is likely not in the consumers best interest.

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gst Said:
Farmorth is very correct in his post.

And the food for fuel debate will intensify right alongside the price of oil and groceries.

There was mention of farm subsidies in another thread. It would be interesting if people took a look at what percentage of their disposable income they spent for food 10 years ago, what they are spending today, to compare it to what will be spent 10 years from now. As this govt moves away from a food security policy, it may become more evident what a bargin people were getting.
.
Even just track the increase in this years time frame. It is being suggested food costs will rise 30% this year alone. Multiglobal corporations are slowly gaining more control over agriculture by controling the technologies farnorth talks about as well as the processing. . In the long run, this is likely not in the consumers best interest.

Yeah everybody has a gut reaction (emotion) when they blurb out farm subsidies.  Some truth is spoke on them though with the exploit of the system by some.  But in the overall scheme.  It is a food program.


 

 

Kirsch's Outdoor Products | Fargo, ND | 701-261-9017 Garmin GPS Hunting Maps
Liebel's Guide Service | Williston, ND | 701-770-6746 liebelsguideservice.com
Jig-em-Up Guide Service | Grand Forks, ND | 701-739-9198 jig-em-up-guide-service.com

 

 
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luveyes Said:

riverview Said:
when you speak of advances in ag what advances are you talking about? If you mean all the chemical use that is the only differance i see. Till the sh--it out of the land in the fall so it blows all winter and in the spring the ditches get filled with top soil from runoff. then you plant a crop and spray it all summer then kill it with roundup in the fall.
makes no sence to me .

In no way am I a farmer, or even close to any anymore......

Seems to me no-till farming is becoming more popular around the midwest.  I guided 3 different couples this last summer.  All had made the switch to no-till farming, and all were retired/semi-retired (if there is truly such a thing in the farming world).  So at their age newer advancements have made them make drastic changes in their operation which have led to higher yields and decreased operational expenses, thus more income.

Than again, what do I know.  It was only 3 farm families with significant acreage; by no means was it a scientific poll.

I am talking of the practices in the red river valley. I agree it is much differant west of here.

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riverview Said:

luveyes Said:

riverview Said:
when you speak of advances in ag what advances are you talking about? If you mean all the chemical use that is the only differance i see. Till the sh--it out of the land in the fall so it blows all winter and in the spring the ditches get filled with top soil from runoff. then you plant a crop and spray it all summer then kill it with roundup in the fall.
makes no sence to me .

In no way am I a farmer, or even close to any anymore......

Seems to me no-till farming is becoming more popular around the midwest.  I guided 3 different couples this last summer.  All had made the switch to no-till farming, and all were retired/semi-retired (if there is truly such a thing in the farming world).  So at their age newer advancements have made them make drastic changes in their operation which have led to higher yields and decreased operational expenses, thus more income.

Than again, what do I know.  It was only 3 farm families with significant acreage; by no means was it a scientific poll.

I am talking of the practices in the red river valley. I agree it is much differant west of here.

if they didn't till in the red river valley it would be June before they got a crop in.

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yeah, RR Valley is a total different beast. Erosion is not really an issue from my understanding.

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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3XGutshot Said:
yeah, RR Valley is a total different beast. Erosion is not really an issue from my understanding.

that is one thing i dont understand but erosion doesnt seem to be a issue anymore.

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There isnt enough water in the RRV to cause erosion..  is there?

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Wind is just as big of an erosion factor as water, and in many areas it is probably greater.  The RRV is likely a case of wind being a bigger problem.

One of the reasons the RRV farmers til the soil is because of compaction.  Compacted soils aren't very good for many of their crops.

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain

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WOW!  Im gonna go ahead and guess you dont farm and never have even been close to a farm.

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sorry, that was a response to riverviews first post.

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Tim Sandstrom Said:

gst Said:
Farmorth is very correct in his post.

And the food for fuel debate will intensify right alongside the price of oil and groceries.

There was mention of farm subsidies in another thread. It would be interesting if people took a look at what percentage of their disposable income they spent for food 10 years ago, what they are spending today, to compare it to what will be spent 10 years from now. As this govt moves away from a food security policy, it may become more evident what a bargin people were getting.
.
Even just track the increase in this years time frame. It is being suggested food costs will rise 30% this year alone. Multiglobal corporations are slowly gaining more control over agriculture by controling the technologies farnorth talks about as well as the processing. . In the long run, this is likely not in the consumers best interest.

Yeah everybody has a gut reaction (emotion) when they blurb out farm subsidies.  Some truth is spoke on them though with the exploit of the system by some.  But in the overall scheme.  It is a food program.

No doubt, like most every govt program there are indeed abuses. But as you said here it is a food security program and as Horsager said in the other thread, even a national security program not a farm welfare program as some suggest.

.

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kid2010 Said:
sorry, that was a response to riverviews first post.

I grew up on a farm still live there and have watched all the shelter belts get tore out, and more ditching than i thought was possable.  the dirt that the water moves in the spring is almost as bad as the dirt that blows most of the winter. As i stated this is in the rrv.
I guess my point is that all the advances have a price that the chemical companys dont know yet.
Why is 99%of the small grains killed with roundup in the fall instead of naturaly cureing?

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The wheat is killed of  so its all ready, we dont have to sit around with our thumbs up are ass's when the weather is good.   its all timeing, you need to get  it off the fields, one rain storm could take 3,4-5 pounds of test weights off, bleach it out, just more discounts, nothing like takin 2 bucks off the top already for low pro.

 

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pness03 Said:
The wheat is killed of  so its all ready, we dont have to sit around with our thumbs up are ass's when the weather is good.   its all timeing, you need to get  it off the fields, one rain storm could take 3,4-5 pounds of test weights off, bleach it out, just more discounts, nothing like takin 2 bucks off the top already for low pro.

Exactly

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riverview Said:

3XGutshot Said:
yeah, RR Valley is a total different beast. Erosion is not really an issue from my understanding.

that is one thing i dont understand but erosion doesnt seem to be a issue anymore.

It will be soon. Hell, go to the west side of any chunk of trees and there will be a 6 foot high hill of dirt all along it. Flat ground, no trees, soil pummeled to dust....its only a matter of time before they start replanting the shelter belt they ripped out 5 years before.

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BringingTheRain Said:

riverview Said:

3XGutshot Said:
yeah, RR Valley is a total different beast. Erosion is not really an issue from my understanding.

that is one thing i dont understand but erosion doesnt seem to be a issue anymore.

It will be soon. Hell, go to the west side of any chunk of trees and there will be a 6 foot high hill of dirt all along it. Flat ground, no trees, soil pummeled to dust....its only a matter of time before they start replanting the shelter belt they ripped out 5 years before.

Had a old timer say , he hated to see the tree rows dissapearing. He thought the young guys forgot about the dirty thirties already. Those trees were planted for a reason.

 

Not all who wander are lost.

 

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