220 swift or 22-250 or 243 wssm

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MooseDroptine
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Joined: Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 2:04pm
220 swift or 22-250 or 243 wssm

I am having a hard time deciding what cal. to buy and type of rifle for varmit hunting any help would be greatfull. Also what is the accu trigger

#1huntergal
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Joined: Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 12:57pm

i have shot many things with my 22-250 like deer and coyotes i love my gun and i have never had any problems with it. I also have used a 243 and liked that too, but to me i would rather have a 22-250 it might not be the best gun if you plan on shooting something 400 yards or more, but i usually don't try to shot that far anyway. So in my opinion 22-250 is the way to go:) that is what i used during deer season and i only had to use one shell to drop them dead in their tracks!

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Horsager
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223 trumps all three by a wide margin. Way cheaper to shoot, especially with factory fodder. Reloads are considerably cheaper too. Cheaper to shoot means you'll shoot it lots more, that's why it's better.

Performance to 350ish is nearly same/same with all of them, a shade more wind drift with the 223 but not enough to make you hit with one and miss with the other.

The Swift and WSSM are basically handloading only options due to poor selection of factory offerings, high prices, and poor availability. If you get the WSSM you'd better lay in a big supply of brass reletively quickly, you'll be lucky to find ammo or brass in 5 yrs.

The 22-250 is certainly no slouch but costs twice what a 223 does to shoot and only really becomes more of a good thing when one stretches to 400yds+.

The accu-trigger is an absolute must if you decide to go Savage, it's an idiot-proof user adjustable trigger. The accu-trigger however pales in comparison to a well-tuned factory trigger from Remington, Winchester, Weatherby/Howa, Sako/Tikka, etc.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



nxs
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Joined: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 - 6:49am

plus 1 to Horsager

In addition I would add that a gas gun in said caliber would be an outstanding choice. A necessity in my eyes if you don't already own one.

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cynical
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buy one of each and a .223--- 1st choice is .223 - cheaper to shoot and longer barrel life, 3200 fps kills em as dead as 4000 fps I bought a DPMS .223 ar-15 recently. With the Dems controlling congress and if a Dem gets in the White House the "assault weapons ban" may come back.

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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Horsager
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Not only will the AWB come back, there won't be any 10yr sunset on the legislation, it'll be permanent. 500 30rnd AR-15 magazines and 1000 or so hi-cap 10/22 mags held for 10yrs or so might fully fund a retirement.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



MooseDroptine
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Joined: Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 2:04pm

thanks for the imput I am still looking I think winchester featerweight is the rifle still looking at balistics

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Horsager
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If you're thinking new you'll be waiting until June/July before the new Model 70's are available. If you're looking at a used rifle, avoid the SS Classic's in 22-250. I love Winchester rifles but that model in that caliber was a known problem child.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



hunternfisher
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Joined: Monday, February 16, 2004 - 12:00am

243 WSSM!!!!!!!! one hell of a caliber! I started shooting mine about two years ago and have taken lots of yotes and shot my 160in buck this year at 300 yrds!! it is expensive to shoot but well worth it!

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Lycanthrope
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Joined: Tuesday, February 3, 2004 - 12:00am

I second the 223 vote, hors said it all.

If you go the 243 route save yourself some headache and skip the wssm route.

z
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Joined: Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - 10:38am

I would first ask if you reload. If you do, I would lean to the 22-250, if not, the 223. Stay away from the WSM, take a good look at the cost of shells and you will see why. I use to own a lightweight 223, it was replaced with a Stevens model 200. Light enough, but not to light. If you want the accu trigger then Savage is your bet. I know they don't look great, but spend the extra $200 on a really good scope and maybe a good rangfinder. You will be ready for anything from Prairie dogs to Antelope. The more Stevens 200's I own, the more impressed I am with them.
NO I do not own stocks in the Savage company, It is just that I worry less about scratches and dings with these rifles and enjoy the hunt more.

Wildlife
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Joined: Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 12:00am

If you are going to be reloading your own ammo, I would recommend the 220 swift. They shoot extremely flat. As far as barrels wearing out due to excessive speeds,I think one would have to shoot thousands of rounds before ever having to worry about it. Good for deer also.

hunternfisher
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Joined: Monday, February 16, 2004 - 12:00am

how do you figure the 243WSSM is a headache! much faster and more enegery than a 243!

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Horsager
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Hunternfisher, help me out here. I've compared my 243Win with reletively mild 85gn TSX handloads (3200fps) compared to the 95gn XP3 which is what I consider to be the most logical comparison based on the entire selection of 4 factory loads for the WSSM.

@ 500yds the WSSM is a whopping 2.5" flatter and carries 219Ft/Lb more energy. Is that what you consider to be "much faster and more energy?" 2.5" one way or the other doesn't even get you outside the kill zone of a coyote, and 219# of energy hardly seems like it'll make the difference between kill or no kill.

So please explain how the WSSM is worth spending 2x more for ammo. If you're handloading, a few specifics for comparison please. If you're not handloading you'd better start! Get brass now, when the M70's are re-introduced in June/July, there won't be any WSSM's. Your action/mag box configuration is useless for anything but a WSSM so stock up now as you're stuck with what you've got.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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Lycanthrope
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Joined: Tuesday, February 3, 2004 - 12:00am

What horsager said....

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tearbear
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Joined: Monday, November 12, 2007 - 5:22pm

the 22-250 will give you way more options as far as availability in rifles and ammo and will hold its resale value. the accu trigger is better than any of the other factory triggers out there!! The 223 is an option, but if you shoot premium ammo or reload, ammunition cost will be similiar and the extra range with the 22-250 is worth it. I like my 300 wsm, but find little value with the 243wsm It has limited options in gun selections and factory ammo, and resale value might not be good!

hunternfisher
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Joined: Monday, February 16, 2004 - 12:00am

as far as a varmit gun look at the ballistics with just the 55 grain factory load for the 243WSSM...i deff have nothing agaist any of the other calibers they are all great loads i just like the flat shooting of the 243WSSM along with a leupold tactical deadly!

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Lycanthrope
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I have my first 223 on order, so I dont have a lot of first hand experience with it. If I were looking for a purely varmint cartridge I would ask myself, what do I want to hunt, if you are going after yotes, 22-250 might be the way to go, you arent going to be shooting many shots in a row so the extra heat shouldn't be a big problem. If you are going after smaller game like gophers/pdogs, you might be better served with a 223. Less powder = less heat and longer barrel life. Savage barrels are a lot easier to replace than most other makes, if you are doing A LOT of shooting, that might be a consideration. You can load a 223 up to around 2800fps (from what Ive read) using 40gr Vmax's which is pretty flat out to 300 or so. If you get a Savage, the 1 to 9 twist barrel will stabilize 75gr a-max's and I have heard even 80s, which would make it a 600+ yard gun, if you can shoot. Some of the other brands may not have a faster twist 223 available which will limit your bullet selection significantly. Im sure Horsager knows more about that than I do.

This is all second hand info that I have picked up online, dont jump on me too hard if I am incorrect!

Farnorth
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Joined: Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 12:00am

Moose,
At the risk of repeating some of what has already been said, I will give you MY answer to your original question.

My number 1 choice would be .223 caliber on an AR platform. Best choice would be a rifle that has a receiver stamped 5.56mm rather than .223 but you might not find as many out there.

If your choice of title to the thread means that you have limited yourself to those three claibers, then 22-250 is the choice because of availability of ammo and performance that rivals the other two. Both of those are basically handload calibers. I would definitely stay away from the .243wssm. Why? We don't know how long it will be around.

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Horsager
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So, in factory offerings the 55gn bullets for both the 243Win and WSSM, the WSSM is 150fps faster and drops 2" less @ 500yds, the gap is narrower if you look any closer than that. 2" @ 500yds isn't noticeable for most as it's hard to hold steady enough to be able to ascertain the difference at that distance. Book max charges get the 243Win to within 70fps of the WSSM with 55gn bullets, I'd bet a reloader with just a little experience could equal the WSSM offerings, though I wouldn't know for sure as I've not fiddled with the lighter .244 offerings. So, help me out here, why is it so much better and worth twice the price to shoot? Were I in your shoes I'd be researching to discern if a WSM length mag box would fit in the WSSM you're shooting now and scoping out barrel prices and gunsmithing fees. If the WSM's won't work with your current setup I'd have 500 brass on hand at a minimum as 5-6 loadings each will likely get you through your current barrel.

For an adjustable trigger right from the factory the M70 trigger is the top of the heap. Remington 700 a close second tied with Kimber. The Savage accu-trigger while necessary on a Savage, is still mediocre at best and I'm being kind.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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Lycanthrope
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Meant up to 3800FPS in my little 223 rant above, with the 40gr vmax's. :P

Farnorth
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Joined: Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 12:00am

Horsager,
I posted something above that I'd like your opinion on. Just how important is the differences between the 5.56mm AR receivers and the .223 receivers?

I have messed around with some bulk ammo from Midway that was marked 5.56mm and I didn't have any problems with it. Apparently, the 5.56mm military loads are hotter and case length is different?

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Horsager
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Not sure. My AR is double stamped 5.56/223, it's a DPMS. I know that NXS's is stamped 5.56 and his shoots the same load mine does. 50 V-max, 26gn H335, Win small rifle primer, Lake City cases, bullet seated just short of the end of an AR magazine. All brass sized on a Redding Full Length sizer (not small base, haven't found it necessary) and bullets seated with the standard Redding seater that I'm going to re-set to taper crimp them just a bit. That load shoots 3/4" or better in every 223 I've tried it in, 15 or more now. So I load until I'm through a 250rd box of V-max's, dump them in a ziplock and load some more.

The 1:9 Savage will shoot 75gn A-max's to 600 sans issue. The only F-class match I've ever shot the guy who won the 600yd portion was shooting that very rig/combo. It's also not too fast for 40's as my AR is 1:9 and shoots bugholes with 50 V-max's.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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Horsager
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Meant to say not too fast for 50's. I've no experience with 40's.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



MooseDroptine
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I think i will stay away from the 243 wssm and I think either the 220 swift or the 22-250 how about the barrel twist it might get used for deer and antilope

hunternfisher
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Joined: Monday, February 16, 2004 - 12:00am

haha some guys are getting pretty worked up here! i am just stating i think the 243wSSM is a heck of a nice caliber and i lover shooting mine, anything from yotes to deer. all these calibers are very good and would work just fine. no need to go bashing my caliber i would prefer, some people just can not stand hearing other opinions towards a certian topic. we all know every hunter thinks they are the best and know that most.

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Lycanthrope
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I would go for a 22-250 over the swift, if I was hunting deer/lope with a .224 caliber I would use either the 62 or 53 grain TSX, either of which a 1/9 twist will stabilize. Out of a fast gun like a 22-250 I would go with the heavier bullet, out of a .223 I would go lighter. If you get a faster twist than 1 in 9 some lighter bullets will disintegrate right out of the muzzle, which really doesn't do much for accuracy. Ive read that Hornady's SPSX bullets or Sierra's Blitz bullets (not blitzking's_) tend to fragment with a fast twist at higher velocities.

Horsager have you ever tried benchmark in your 223? Ive read that it burns a cleaner than H335, ever tried it?

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BX2
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If these were my only choises id say 22-250.Otherwise id give the 223 a serious look. I like to be able to buy my ammo just about anywhere,and the 223 is easy to find usually.Savage seems pretty good,I never did care if my guns were pretty as long as they shot well.

 

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Way too much 335 on hand to change now, and it's worked in so many different 223's, I've the utmost in confidence in it. If I were considering going another direction in powder I'd look to TAC 1st as I've had good luck with other Ramshot powders, they're reletively cheap ($15.50/lb in Fargo), they meter through a Dillon quite well, and Hunter at least has proven very stable through a wide temp range.

If you go Swift the only good option is Ruger, either in a #1 or the Target model. The Target is a pig, too heavy and an ill shaped stock, but it's the only Ruger bolt with an adjustable trigger, such as it is being 2 stage and all. A Remington will drive you loony from the magazine, the semi-rimmed cartriges can be a real pain in the arse from a full magazine. Then you also get to deal with brass that doesn't last as long and needs to be trimmed more often.

Whether you go 22-250 or Swift you'll find it nearly impossible to pick up a rifle off the shelf that's twisted faster than 1:14. Driven hard enough in most rifles this is enough to stabilize either the 60gn Partition or 64gn Winchester Power Point. It'll certainly run the 53TSX and might do the 62TSX. You can pick a 1:9 or 1:8 twist 223 off the shelf from Savage, Remington, or Tikka, and most of the AR-15's will be 1:9 or faster.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



boondocks
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Joined: Friday, January 27, 2006 - 8:25pm

Of the three listed definately 22-250.

ndelk7x7
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Joined: Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 7:18pm

I have all 3 of the Rifles. 223 in a Rem 700 VLS and Browning Abolt. Win Coyote 243 WSSM and Oly AR-15 in 243 WSSM. And a Rem 700 VLS 22-250 and Rem 700 BDL.

I don't see how anyone can compare the 3. If you are using Factory ammo you are stuck with what you buy.If you are hand loading you have many opions. I will take my 243 WSSM out Coyote hunting any day over the 223 or 22-250. I think the 223 is a joke for Coyotes. They don't buck the wind like the other 2 do. And its to slow compared to the other speeders. If you don't like the cost of the Ammo or Brass don't buy one.Just because the 223 ammo is cheaper doesn't mean it better. For the amount of shells that most people shoot it isn't that much more.

How many people have all 3 and can make a fair judgement on what is best?

louieleatherneck
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Joined: Monday, November 27, 2006 - 9:02pm

Hi, horsager, I bought a 243 a few years ago and started reloading but haven't got back to it for 4 or 5 years. Doesn't the bullet range for a 243 cover a pretty dang decent grain range? I am thinking from 55 or so grains up to at least 117 grains with the light bullet nearing 4000fps( comparable to a 22-250 and 117 still over 3000 for whitetail?) To me that makes a very good(slightly heavy) varmint and good deer rifle.m Not loaded hot just a recommended charge that is supposed to be safe

ndelk7x7
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Joined: Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 7:18pm

I also have a Ruger in a 220 Swift and love it. Its a great Coyote round. I would compare it more to the 243 WSSM than the 22-250.

walivision
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Joined: Monday, October 10, 2005 - 2:19am

horsager

question 4 u?

i have a m70 223 and would like to do some work on the trigger, i have never done it before. can you give me a few pointers.

i would like to lighten it up and make it a litte smoother. also how do u get it out?

thanks

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Horsager
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Wali, there are instructions to adjusting the trigger online, just google it. It'd be better to watch/learn from someone who knows how a few times 1st before having at it yourself. Making sure it's safe when you're done is the real issue. No need to take the trigger all the way out, just remove the stock. Make sure when you put the stock back on that you tighten the front screw 1st, back screw 2nd, and the middle screw just snug enough so that it won't back out, get it too tight and it'll bind the bolt.

Louie, most factory 243's won't stabilize a bullet over 100gns-105gns and it's tough to find anything heavier. The 243 really shines with 85's for an all purpose rifle.

ND 7x7, how far do you ROUTINELY kill coyotes? Inside 300 there isn't enough wind drift difference to cause you to miss a coyote with a 223 and hit it with a 22-250, swift, or 243WSSM. While I don't own the WSSM I do own half a dozen 223's, I'm on my 3rd 22-250, and 2nd 243Win. Are you handloading the WSSM? If so are you able to obtain or exceed factory velocity with it over a chronograph? I love my 243Win, I see it as nearly the perfect "all purpose truck gun". It doesn't tear up fur, it's enough for deer with the right bullet, and it works pretty well in the wind. I see the WSSM as a 243Win wannabe that'll be gone to all but the handloader in 5 or less yrs. Is your AR magazine single stack? It's tough enough to get a bolt gun to feed the short/fats, I've not heard of any trouble with the WSSM gas guns though so I'm wondering why they work and bolts struggle.

If I were forced down to one varmint/light caliber rifle I'd have a 1:8 Tikka or 1:9 Remington SPS Tactical in 223. I'd load 50 V-max to 3300ish for nearly everything and 75 A-max @ 2800ish for any long range work. The best wind-bucking factory offering in WSSM is the 95gn BT, the 75 A-max @ 2800fps while not as flat is no more affected in the wind than the 95BT @ 3250 (factory ballistics), they run neck and neck in the wind to 800 and elevation is easy to dial. There are certainly some higher BC .244 bullets but you're looking at a re-barrel to use most of them vs. being able to pick up a rifle off the shelf and go shoot. The factory offerings available in both factory rifles and factory ammo allows the 223 to trump the field soundly. It's versatility is unmatched by any other all factory varmint chambering.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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cynical
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What bullet is a better choice for a .223, 55gr vmax or 55gr nosler ballistic tip? By better I mean which would be less likely to over penetrate and push through a coyote? I've shot both out of a .22-250 and both have worked well.

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French."  Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
 -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

 

 

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Couldn't say on the 55's, I load 50 V-max's in the 223 or el cheapo 55gn soft-points. I use 55gn BT's in the 22-250 for their higher BC because when I grab the 22-250 it's likely 350+yds. I shot a coyote mid Dec broadside through the chest with a 55BT started at 3700fps via 22-250 and @ 425yds the bullet exited roughly 50cent piece size.

The 50gn V-max 26gn H335 works in a DPMS and Bushmaster AR, Kimber 84, Interarms mini-mauser, several 700 and 7 Rems, an older Sako, a Tikka, a Winchester, and a couple of Vanguard/Howa's. Twists from 1:14 to as fast as 1:8. Back of .5gn and seat a 55gn soft point and that load works in all those rifles too. The 50 V-max shot better than the 55BT in my AR, same in my heavy barreled Win 70. A pard shot a coyote @ 200yds a couple weeks ago with the 50 V-max and again the bullet did exit but the wound was smaller than a quarter, the kill was however a very dramatic bang-flop. 50's from a 20" or longer 223 should run 3300 or just a bit more.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.



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Hey horsager, why not 40s in the 223? You can push them faster, BC isnt a lot worse, pretty flat out to 300 or so, if you are going farther than that might want to move up to a true high BC bullet anyway. Have you ever tried them. I havent shot either, but from what I have read out of a modern 223 bolt action I hear 3700 to 3800fps with a 40gr vmax isnt unreasonable, have you compared that to a 50gr in the 3300fps area? I might have to punch some numbers and see what I come up with...

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Nothing wrong with 40's, just never went that route. I did shoot a couple boxes of Federal 40gn BT's in a 22-250 I was trying out way back when. They were like a damned laser! Trajetory is easy to predict and counter via elevation turret or subtension. Wind is still voodoo, especially the days when it's really variable. In a fairly constant wind a guy can fiddle with scope power until the duplex intersection gives the subtension needed for the day. Those days you need to shoot less windage than the intersection allows can be the most frustrating. A recent anemometer purchase has helped but it still only measures wind at the muzzle and wind does funny things over broken ground. Wind is voodoo.

Let us know what you come up with regarding the 40's.

This moment is a paradox, it's the oldest you've ever been as well as the youngest you'll ever be.